Tanks using their enmity combo while being OT

[Syzygian]

If they are ripping aggro off you in Tank stance, guess who "should" be the new MT and guess who should be replaced?

Goddamn, just stop.

[Iagainsti]

Goddamn, just stop.

+1, I swear to the Twelve he gets his kicks being wrong or misinformed constantly across the forums.

The empty Vessel makes the loudest noise- William Shakespeare

[AlexiIvaniskavich]

Going to assume that left side gear difference isn't an issue.

My WAR co-tank runs the higher potency combo, and once told me that there were a few times he "backed off slightly" because the aggro bar was getting really close. That day was the last day he ever ramped down. I asked him how do I know how to stance dance optimally if you aren't playing at your absolute fullest? I told him that if he rips hate off me it is MY FAULT, not his. (with exception to the triple crit fell cleave - which is nobodies fault).

Since then I have lost hate as a PLD once to a double crit fell cleave, a handful (less than 5) of times under normal circumstance, or if I derp and pull in SwO and stay there.

I have lost hate as a DRK only on the dreaded, but loved triple crit fell cleave.

Almost without exception, any time I lose hate, it has to do with me pushing my boundries and my groups boundries on stance dancing.

If you need to tell a class to play sub optimally, then you aren't doing everything you need to be doing and you need to look inward to what you can do better. (Yes, even with PLD's issues right now)

[bounddreamer]

If you need to tell a class to play sub optimally, then you aren't doing everything you need to be doing and you need to look inward to what you can do better. (Yes, even with PLD's issues right now)

This guy gets it.

When I got my 210 weapon I mentioned on raid night I might have to go easy. My MT responded, "you better not."

[Instrumentality]

This guy gets it.

When I got my 210 weapon I mentioned on raid night I might have to go easy. My MT responded, "you better not."

It's not going easy so much as it is you not harming your raid group by playing badly?

I dunno how much more simple it can be. Every time your MT has to do an extra enmity combo to stay ahead of you, you cost your raid more potency per second than you gain by doing BB. It is mathematically impossible for it to work otherwise.

Edit: Unless you dual warrior. In which case your MT is never going to lose hate anyway.

[Instrumentality]

If you need to tell a class to play sub optimally, then you aren't doing everything you need to be doing and you need to look inward to what you can do better. (Yes, even with PLD's issues right now)

You are doing less damage than you otherwise could while keeping hate against your warrior offtank and he is harming your raids' dps output. The tradeoff to do an enmity combo on the MT is greater than the loss of your warrior doing SE/SE. Hope this helps.

For every extra enmity combo you have to do because of an offtank, you lose >80 potency. For every SE/SE combo you have to do as a WAR you lose 20 potency. It's really not hard to figure out which is a bigger raid dps loss.

[Iagainsti]

the 20 potency is irrelevant, when you stack enough crit, I never use BB combo once I have aggro set, and never as an OT. Just SE and the odd SP for damage bursts. The thought of dropping SE or Maim bc of mechanics would be a bigger detriment to your overall dps than that extra 20 potency, again irrelevant when your SE hits are 2.9-3k crits.

[Lethallin]

I just rotate SE and SP combo back and forth when OTing.

A 40 potency loss every 2 rotations for a permanent 10% damage dealt reduction on the boss seems worth it for me. For the 6 GCDs, it'd be 1200 Potency vs 1240 potency, which is a little more then 3.3% damage loss. If you factor in that we'll get about one Fell Cleave per 6 GCD's, it'd be 1700 vs 1740 per 7 GCD's, or about a 2.5% damage loss. This is also ignoring Auto-Attacks, and other abilities.

2.5% damage loss in exchange for the MT not worrying about OT threat, and a permanent 10% damage reduction should be worth it for everyone.

[Iagainsti]

I just rotate SE and SP combo back and forth when OTing.

A 40 potency loss every 2 rotations for a permanent 10% damage dealt reduction on the boss seems worth it for me. For the 6 GCDs, it'd be 1200 Potency vs 1240 potency, which is a little more then 3.3% damage loss. If you factor in that we'll get about one Fell Cleave per 6 GCD's, it'd be 1700 vs 1740 per 7 GCD's, or about a 2.5% damage loss. This is also ignoring Auto-Attacks, and other abilities.

2.5% damage loss in exchange for the MT not worrying about OT threat, and a permanent 10% damage reduction should be worth it for everyone.

While I do commend you for thinking of your party by doing this, SP really only needs to be applied prior to subsequent big hits, or "tank busters" what with the current ilvl>required ilvl for current content. Most healers will now be overhealing the whole fight and you'll be short on damage.

Food for thought.

[Syzygian]

I have lost hate as a DRK only on the dreaded, but loved triple crit fell cleave.

I don't buy it. It takes 3 Fell Cleaves and an additonal 40 potency to equal the hate of a single Butcher's Block. I'd say its worse if you're losing hate to 3 FCs divided up between 9-10 GCDs than against a single BB, all other things being equal.

Anyway I dunno how people aren't grasping the math. If the MT is dropping tank stance and doing an optimal dps rotation and the WAR is using BB every other combo they WILL catch up and rip hate, it has nothing to do with skill or gear its simple math. I can't speak for PLD, but a DRK having to use PS instead of DASE just negated the raid DPS potency gains of 6.5 BB combos. Those numbers speak for themselves.

Not saying never use BB but be intelligent about it.