Minfillia Speculation

[Belhi]

And this right here is the entire problem with Final Fantasy XIV's narrative. We're so powerful that the powerless masses see us as "hope," but those around us have their self-worth beaten down one ilm at a time. Because we're just that much more capable, more important, than they are. They just aren't as necessary as we are. Hell, it's already text in a number of quests (but please don't make me quote them one by one), and subtext in a lot more.

Maybe it's a teensy, tiny problem when the hero is that much better than everyone else?

Yes and no. There is a reasonable limit to what you can expect to achieve before you have to start seeing someone as something special. This popped up recently in WoW where in its story the main character has been holding more and more importance in the world. A lot of people wanted to be just a nameless grunt or soldier. The thing a nameless grunt or soldier is going to stop being nameless at a certain point if he or she starts killing off gods, ancient dragons and repeatedly saving the world. Heroics makes you stand out. Repeated heroics makes you get put up on a pedestal. That's just naturally going to happen.

Even if we ignore all the rather unusual talent the WoL has, they kill gods regularly and are an outstanding fighter. Our actions by definition make us stand out. The narrative in FF14 embraces this and rather than trying to make us feel less important instead puts the burden of having to be the one to do it on the WoL's shoulders. They have to do it cause there isn't anyone else and frankly the world is running short on the amount of losses it can take.

I would point out that they do mitigate this. The WoL cant do everything on their own. We can win key battles but on our own we can't win the war. Its often mentioned subtly and people often overlook it and it applies to the meta conflict as well as the more mundane battles. Take the Steps of Faith for example. We defended the Dravanian attack on Ishgard there and kept the city from falling. However it wasn't the only place that got attacked. There were pitch battles at both Vigils where the volunteers we collected, the Crystal Braves and the Ishgardians took quite a beating. No matter how great we are we couldn't have defended those places and the Steps of Faith. Without others Ishgard might have stood but most of Coerthas probably would have been in ruins.

Further, I suspect the Minfilia thing will also highlight that we cant do it alone. Our role is realistically to counter the Ascians directly. I think that what Minfilia has don't is do something else equally as important but different. All the WoL's efforts wont mean squat if Hydaelyn falls while they are out kicking ass.

[Fenral]

I would point out that they do mitigate this. The WoL cant do everything on their own. We can win key battles but on our own we can't win the war.

Oh, it's not that I'm overlooking those moments, it's just that, in the grand scheme of things, so long as the WoL is portrayed as the king piece that must be kept alive at any cost, including the lives of our allies, our symbolic value becomes increasingly dangerous. So long as we keep on winning, it's fine (and the Parting Glass quest no longer counts as a defeat), but if our fallibility were ever proven on a grand scale, after everything we've succeeded through, it would be the end. Not because we'd lose our only shot at victory, but because the belief that our only hope of victory had been lost would have disastrous implications for a world where beliefs can be made manifest.

The light of hope isn't some frail thing that must be kept alive through sacrifice. It's something that never goes out, because there's no such thing as a truly hopeless situation. Ever. Period.

[Belhi]

Oh, it's not that I'm overlooking those moments, it's just that, in the grand scheme of things, so long as the WoL is portrayed as the king piece that must be kept alive at any cost, including the lives of our allies, our symbolic value becomes increasingly dangerous. So long as we keep on winning, it's fine (and the Parting Glass quest no longer counts as a defeat), but if our fallibility were ever proven on a grand scale, after everything we've succeeded through, it would be the end. Not because we'd lose our only shot at victory, but because the belief that our only hope of victory had been lost would have disastrous implications for a world where beliefs can be made manifest.

The light of hope isn't some frail thing that must be kept alive through sacrifice. It's something that never goes out, because there's no such thing as a truly hopeless situation. Ever. Period.

That's the thing. We aren't the king piece. Hydaelyn is. We are the queen. The strongest and most powerful piece on our side of the board. The thing is its late in the game and the enemy is in a much stronger position than we are. We have to defend our king but we cant win unless we are successful in our offense as well and the WoL is key to that offensive plan, at least in part due to the lack of other pieces Hydaelyn has left to field. Likewise the queen cant be wasted playing defence. Doing so risks leaving the board in control of the enemy.

I'd also point out the light of hope goes out if you lose. If everyone was dead there wouldn't be much hope. Sure us dying might not kill the light of hope per say but the way the story has painted it we are down to Hydaelyn's last play. She doesn't have the strength left to try again. The WoL is a key piece for her forces.

[Fenral]

You're putting the cart before the horse there. When I say the light of hope never goes out, I mean that our loss conditions may not be what we think they are. An outcome we assume hopeless, that we assume will get everyone killed, may not end up how we think, and may still have a way out. That's why it's always important to consider how much you really know about the situation before letting yourself get backed into plays that can't be taken back.

I'm just going to leave here that we don't actually know if Hydaelyn really is what we think she is. Meaning, we don't even actually know if it's game over if she fades, or we only think it will be game over if that happens. Something about how strong enough belief and a sufficient quantity of aether is enough to make the object of your beliefs manifest, regardless of the "truth" behind it. You'll recall the form the Twelve took when Louisoix summoned them. Suppose enough people got together around enough crystals, or even a giant "mother" crystal, and begged salvation of the planet itself...

You'd believe it was the real thing, worship it as the real thing, and in turn your beliefs would grow stronger, but you kill enough "false" gods and suddenly you start to question if any of them are actually real.

[Belhi]

Considering all past experience with how Ascian plans turn out when they work out, it isn't a huge leap to assume that another victory will be a disaster on a massive scale for the people of Hydaelyn (the world). We know for a fact that Hydaelyn has been getting weaker. The information from both our allies and from the ascians points to that quite clearly. The Ascians certainly seem to believe themselves on the cusp of a final victory.

I wouldn't rule out Hydaelyn turning out to be a bad but frankly everything we have, in game and out, except the vague comments of a couple of Ascians, points to Hydaelyn being a benevolent force that actually cares about the people of the world. Everything we have seen from the Ascians points to them being the opposite, not caring at all for the people of the world or worse, seeing them with contempt. Hell we even have the theme songs Answers and Dragonsong which are confirmed to be from Hydaelyn's perspective.

Perhaps that assumption is wrong but if we are looking at everything we have to go on, which frankly our characters and all NPCs in game would have to operate from, the situation is as I put it above.

On Louisoix, I'm pretty sure what he did was a modified incomplete primal summoning ritual. Doesn't he say as much at some point, maybe during the tales of the Calamity short stories? That's why he gets everyone playing. Its a dangerous venture but considering the Eorzea was facing a moon crashing into it things were extremely desperate. I don't believe it was the actual twelve just as if you tried a primal summoning ritual you wouldn't get one of the twelve but a primal in their image. Frankly we don't even know for certain if the twelve actually even exist.

[AdamuKun322]

I am very impressed at how popular this thread is! One of my most popular yet! I believe we shall learn some this patch and learn the rest when we face off against the Goddess herself, Sophia (as her name stands now).

[Fenral]

At this point I'm on the verge of writing an essay on why so many JRPGs inevitably delve into the messy process of killing God. I'll spare you that one.

Tealdeer: symbols have power, and we're in a setting where sufficient belief in a symbol can actually influence reality. It's why building up the WoL too strong in the minds of the people is dangerous (personal empowerment metaphors aside), and it's also why our belief in a "mother crystal" that sustains the world is possibly suspect.

Ysayle's disillusionment was just the tip of the iceberg as far as possibilities. What if the Twelve are fake? (They probably are, who are we kidding.) What if even Hydaelyn is just a manifest product of our imaginations, born from a need to personify the unknowable will of the world itself? Where would that leave us?

Unless proof could be found to the contrary, she'd be indistinguishable from the "real thing," and if we didn't think a "real thing" existed already, she could never have manifest to begin with. What if we're fighting and dying for a symbol we've mistaken for the planet itself?

[Alisa180]

Hydaelyn seems to be a fusion of two concepts: The Lifestream from FFVII, and the 'world crystals' from FFIX. The Lifestream in FFVII was unambigiously portrayed as both a good thing and vital, with those tampering with it portrayed as villains.

The world crystal in FFIX was the accumulation of all the memories of those who once lived on the planet (all made one). It was also portrayed as a good thing, and the primary conflict is initiated by those who interfered with it.

My current headcannon is that Hydaelyn is a planet crystal similiar to in FFIX, just given sentience...Actually, now that I think about, the 'eidilons' (summons) in FFIX are similiar to primals. They were created from the myths and legends of the world by the planet. Hm...

Anyway, between these two concepts (especially the planet crystal one) its going to take a whole hell of a lot to put Hydaelyn anywhere near 'hey, maybe helping her isn't such a good idea...'

[Fenral]

Really? Because I think a story that has any god's (even a "nice" one's) chosen one going around stomping all over the "false gods" of less-civilized races, all the while perfectly assured in the validity of their own faith, isn't much of a story at all.

But I also don't think that's FFXIV, even though that's where we are right now.

[Cilia]

I'm just railing against the belief that it's OK for Hydaelyn to seemingly have possessed Minfilia for whatever reason. It goes against my creed to just accept this, especially as a Dark Knight; I fight not at the behest of the goddess, but because I choose to. (Well, technically everyone does, but I've faced the aspect of myself and acknowledged that I can leave it behind if I so choose). However, to have possessed the body of our dear friend, willingly or otherwise, should certainly paint Hydaelyn in a light she hasn't been seen in before, yet people are justifying it due to Hydaelyn's weakness and the supposed direness of the situation.

Necessary? ... perhaps. Perhaps not.

Either way, that's not the behavior of a benevolent goddess, and it sends a lot of worrying and bad messages. "Free will should be relinquished at the behest of the divine" is the big one that I take issue with here, since that appears to be what's happened. I don't buy into that at all. There are other things I'd say on the matter, but I'm too tired right now to fully articulate it all, so perhaps later.