Minfillia Speculation

[Belhi]

Considering all past experience with how Ascian plans turn out when they work out, it isn't a huge leap to assume that another victory will be a disaster on a massive scale for the people of Hydaelyn (the world). We know for a fact that Hydaelyn has been getting weaker. The information from both our allies and from the ascians points to that quite clearly. The Ascians certainly seem to believe themselves on the cusp of a final victory.

I wouldn't rule out Hydaelyn turning out to be a bad but frankly everything we have, in game and out, except the vague comments of a couple of Ascians, points to Hydaelyn being a benevolent force that actually cares about the people of the world. Everything we have seen from the Ascians points to them being the opposite, not caring at all for the people of the world or worse, seeing them with contempt. Hell we even have the theme songs Answers and Dragonsong which are confirmed to be from Hydaelyn's perspective.

Perhaps that assumption is wrong but if we are looking at everything we have to go on, which frankly our characters and all NPCs in game would have to operate from, the situation is as I put it above.

On Louisoix, I'm pretty sure what he did was a modified incomplete primal summoning ritual. Doesn't he say as much at some point, maybe during the tales of the Calamity short stories? That's why he gets everyone playing. Its a dangerous venture but considering the Eorzea was facing a moon crashing into it things were extremely desperate. I don't believe it was the actual twelve just as if you tried a primal summoning ritual you wouldn't get one of the twelve but a primal in their image. Frankly we don't even know for certain if the twelve actually even exist.

[Fenral]

At this point I'm on the verge of writing an essay on why so many JRPGs inevitably delve into the messy process of killing God. I'll spare you that one.

Tealdeer: symbols have power, and we're in a setting where sufficient belief in a symbol can actually influence reality. It's why building up the WoL too strong in the minds of the people is dangerous (personal empowerment metaphors aside), and it's also why our belief in a "mother crystal" that sustains the world is possibly suspect.

Ysayle's disillusionment was just the tip of the iceberg as far as possibilities. What if the Twelve are fake? (They probably are, who are we kidding.) What if even Hydaelyn is just a manifest product of our imaginations, born from a need to personify the unknowable will of the world itself? Where would that leave us?

Unless proof could be found to the contrary, she'd be indistinguishable from the "real thing," and if we didn't think a "real thing" existed already, she could never have manifest to begin with. What if we're fighting and dying for a symbol we've mistaken for the planet itself?

[AdamuKun322]

I am very impressed at how popular this thread is! One of my most popular yet! I believe we shall learn some this patch and learn the rest when we face off against the Goddess herself, Sophia (as her name stands now).

[Alisa180]

Hydaelyn seems to be a fusion of two concepts: The Lifestream from FFVII, and the 'world crystals' from FFIX. The Lifestream in FFVII was unambigiously portrayed as both a good thing and vital, with those tampering with it portrayed as villains.

The world crystal in FFIX was the accumulation of all the memories of those who once lived on the planet (all made one). It was also portrayed as a good thing, and the primary conflict is initiated by those who interfered with it.

My current headcannon is that Hydaelyn is a planet crystal similiar to in FFIX, just given sentience...Actually, now that I think about, the 'eidilons' (summons) in FFIX are similiar to primals. They were created from the myths and legends of the world by the planet. Hm...

Anyway, between these two concepts (especially the planet crystal one) its going to take a whole hell of a lot to put Hydaelyn anywhere near 'hey, maybe helping her isn't such a good idea...'

[Fenral]

Really? Because I think a story that has any god's (even a "nice" one's) chosen one going around stomping all over the "false gods" of less-civilized races, all the while perfectly assured in the validity of their own faith, isn't much of a story at all.

But I also don't think that's FFXIV, even though that's where we are right now.

[Cilia]

I'm just railing against the belief that it's OK for Hydaelyn to seemingly have possessed Minfilia for whatever reason. It goes against my creed to just accept this, especially as a Dark Knight; I fight not at the behest of the goddess, but because I choose to. (Well, technically everyone does, but I've faced the aspect of myself and acknowledged that I can leave it behind if I so choose). However, to have possessed the body of our dear friend, willingly or otherwise, should certainly paint Hydaelyn in a light she hasn't been seen in before, yet people are justifying it due to Hydaelyn's weakness and the supposed direness of the situation.

Necessary? ... perhaps. Perhaps not.

Either way, that's not the behavior of a benevolent goddess, and it sends a lot of worrying and bad messages. "Free will should be relinquished at the behest of the divine" is the big one that I take issue with here, since that appears to be what's happened. I don't buy into that at all. There are other things I'd say on the matter, but I'm too tired right now to fully articulate it all, so perhaps later.

[Fenral]

DARKSIDE ACTIVATED

This, really. So much on these forums about how the light is goodness and individuality and freedom and free will and-- FULL STOP MOMMY WHY ARE YOU CHAINING UP MINFILIA?

There is no amount of justification that can make that okay. If goodness and love can't win with just goodness and love, it stops being goodness and love. You've lost either way.

[Mjollnir]

*fwoosh*

I REALLY hope one of the 'changes' in this patch brought about Hydaelyn's 'change' is a 'change' to our The Echo so we regain the ability of time travel.

*fwoosh*

[Nalien]

I... Think the chains are entirely symbolic...

I'm not sure Minfilia is losing her free will or anything like that, I think her fate is tied to that of Hydaelyns (in a very specific/important way, hence Elidibus showing an interest in her, dudes obviously known this would happen for a while), and any change that occurs from here on out is a result of her learning about that fate. She's gone from bumbling around in the dark to gaining a much deeper understanding of things, and as a result she is bound to Hydaelyn. It's still her will to "do the right thing", but in learning TheTruth™ she is now in a position where she either helps Hydaelyn or she damns Hydaelyn, either way her fate is chained to Hydaelyns.

Unless Hydaelyn has intentionally been deceiving everyone, I cannot see such a radical change in personality... It's also entirely possible that, given we'll likely be finding her at the end of a dungeon in which we fight numerous Sharlayan defense systems, the chains are Sharlayan in origin, not Hydaelyns work... I mean... If you had a station monitoring God, and there was a cult of maniacs (and there are plenty of such forces in Eorzea...) you knew were trying to kill God... Wouldn't you put some kind of defense system in the way? Wouldn't you want to apprehend anyone trying to come into direct contact with God? If the chains aren't symbolic, my bet is on them being Sharlayan in origin. Hydaelyn never struck me as the bondage type...

[Cilia]

I REALLY hope one of the 'changes' in this patch brought about Hydaelyn's 'change' is a 'change' to our The Echo [sic] so we regain the ability of time travel.

I never played 1.x, but technically literal time travel was never a function of the Echo. It was a sort of mental flashback via the memories engraved in a person's soul, exactly like we do with it now, just less clear when it was functioning.

I... Think the chains are entirely symbolic...

Well, they're not physically literal chains. However, based on what I've seen, it's led me to the conclusion that Minfilia has been possessed by Hydaelyn during her absence from the narrative. First off, in the artwork Minfilia is not only bound by chains to the mothercrystal, close inspection shows her sort of melding into it. Second, she's wearing a very simple white dress - white is typically the color of light and associated with the divine (compare Minfilia's original rather ornate pink halter top and butt-gap skirt... thing). Third, in every image we've seen of her except the vision of her in front of the mothercrystal, Minfilia's eyes are closed. The eyes are the "windows to the soul," and her eyes are only open in a vision of Minfilia in front of the mothercrystal... hmm...

The only conclusion I can reach with this information that Hydaelyn is either piggybacking in Minfilia's body or has outright possessed her. It may have been willingly, and it may be limited to a certain area, but it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth. If it's outright possession with Minfilia's consciousness suppressed or outright extracted, I... don't want to fight for Hydaelyn anymore. Resorting to possession is a pretty immoral thing to do, necessary or otherwise. Zodiark, for all his supposed evil and malice, left the Ascians with free will; if Hydaelyn is going to go possess our close friend, is she really better?

... this is all mere conjecture, of course. Until we get the whole story it's quite rash to jump on the deicide bandwagon. Suffice to say, however, that after Bloodborne I'm quite skeptical of trusting in the absolute morality of any deity, especially when they do morally questionable acts like possessing people. Their value systems differ greatly, and they have no problem offering one person as a sacrifice for the greater good because one life is relatively inconsequential. However, what may be a single, inconsequential life to a deity is everything to that person, and it makes everyone who cares for them suffer as well...

Something something collectivist culture.

Something something hope will never die.

Our reunion will be in the depths of the Antitower, of that I have little doubt. But what manner of reunion will it be, and who will we be speaking to...?

I don't think Minfilia was kidnapped or captured by a band of Sharlayan extremists intent on performing immoral research on the Echo. Every Sharlayan but Matoya left 20 years ago with the impending Garlean invasion, and the only Sharlayans to return since were the Circle of Knowing and those tied to the AST quest (and they all became pariahs in Sharlayan as a result). Besides which, before the Isle of Val was destroyed there was a whole order of Echo users, likely close to the Sharlayan motherland, so that shouldn't have been necessary?