Minfillia Speculation

[Mjollnir]

I never played 1.x, but technically literal time travel was never a function of the Echo. It was a sort of mental flashback via the memories engraved in a person's soul, exactly like we do with it now, just less clear when it was functioning.

I know this is slightly off-topic for this thread, but from the very first scene of 1.0 you were either time-travelling or being able to reconstitute physical items from such memories via the aetherflow (as was alternatively theorised at the time). I did play back then and as the story progressed, not only were you viewing the past, you were interacting with people and objects and subjectively changing events, at one point even taking Y'shtola along on one of your journeys (and that was from within what we called back then an 'Echo' to an 'Echo' within an 'Echo'). It was a lot more complicated than a mental flashback and, once you came to recognize the *swoosh* sound that accompanied a journey (Moose's greatest moment imo!), perfectly clear when it was functioning.

That storyline, perhaps the greatest in XIV overall, was unfortunately abandoned and the causes for Hydaelyn's Gift and even, as some postulated, the existence of the player's character altogether was left unexplained.

Back on-topic, I sorely hope that rather than being abandoned and ignored as a piece of apocrypha, that storyline is revisited, expanded upon and our old The Echo is returned to us through one of the many 'changes' this patch will bring. High hopes, but I have to have them else I can't justify playing the same game of Triple Triad 500+ times without getting the damned card I need.

[myahele]

I always jokingly thought that Minfilia will somehow be Hydaelyn vessel in some shape/form ... just never thought it might be a reality.

I do wonder if this might be Elidibus' doing? Nobody could have transported Minfilia underneath those tunnels unless it was an Ascien. Strange that she was also changed to Zodiark.

Also, I remember an "Ascilia" helping out Doman orphans. "Ascilia" is Minfilia's real name. She was only mentioned, but assuming Minfilia having hydealyn-powered telepathy is not much of a stretch.

Maybe we're slowly seeing Hydaelyn's "darkside" I remember the Asciens calling her a parasite ... that artwork did remind me of parasitic being.

[Fenral]

Also, I remember an "Ascilia" helping out Doman orphans. "Ascilia" is Minfilia's real name. She was only mentioned, but assuming Minfilia having hydealyn-powered telepathy is not much of a stretch.

That was actually Ascelina, the barkeep at Revenant's Toll. It was a text error (I suspect autocorrect had something to do with it) that ended up in the initial release, but has since been corrected.

[Belhi]

Hydaelyn is supposed to be the physical form of source of Aether, and therefore lifeforce, for the world. That's why as she gets weaker Aetheric levels start to drop one would assume.

I think the thing here is this isn't about Hydaelyn doing an evil by possessing Minfilia. If Hydaelyn is our king piece in the war between the Ascians and us (and this is very much a war), then what we could be seeing here is Minfilia sacrificing herself at least in a way. What exactly is Hydaelyn's options here? If this is necessary and she doesn't then falls then what? We lose? That's not a noble or kind thing to do. That's sacrificing everyone and throwing away everyone else's sacrifices for the sake of pride and idealism.

We have twice in HW been saved by the sacrifices of others. They lost their lives to save ours. Are we bad people because of that?

Now this is all speculation so the above scenario could be completely wrong. If find it a stretch from how the narrative has been presented to us so far for them to so suddenly make Hydaelyn appear a villain, particularly because under every stretch of the imagination it is still going to be hard to sell the Ascians as 'good guys' considering the carnage and death they have caused and continue to cause. If Hydaelyn go bad, does that mean we turn on her? Does that mean we will suddenly have Midgarsormr turn on us since he is her ally. Will we lose the Blessing of Light? Exactly what will we do then? That narratively at this stage of the story sounds like it would be utter chaos. That's why Im not expecting it.

The other thing we should consider is Minfilia's current situation might not be permanent. This might be a stop gap measure. We just have far too little info to go on at the moment. I wouldn't leap to the conclusion that this is evidence of Hydaelyn going bad.

[Fenral]

We have one image to work with, and it's of a severely uncomfortable Minfilia being chained (and absorbed!) by the mothercrystal. Nobody's arguing that Hydaelyn is going to turn villain, or that the Ascians are somehow magically good in all this. You're getting way too hung up on extremes of "absolute good" and "absolute evil" to see anything that might lie in-between.

Hydaelyn is supposed to be the physical form of source of Aether, and therefore lifeforce, for the world. That's why as she gets weaker Aetheric levels start to drop one would assume.

She's the anthropomorphic personification of a force of nature, something that by all rights shouldn't have any sort of personality. We've fought those before. They're called primals. The Lifestream in FFVII wasn't some great benevolent entity, it was an apathetic omnipresence with a completely incomprehensible will in service to itself alone. Aerith cast Holy to ask it for help (and the cost she payed was incidental and tragic, not a necessity), and it did, but only after we proved it was to our mutual benefit.

I think the thing here is this isn't about Hydaelyn doing an evil by possessing Minfilia. If Hydaelyn is our king piece in the war between the Ascians and us (and this is very much a war), then what we could be seeing here is Minfilia sacrificing herself at least in a way. What exactly is Hydaelyn's options here? If this is necessary and she doesn't then falls then what? We lose? That's not a noble or kind thing to do. That's sacrificing everyone and throwing away everyone else's sacrifices for the sake of pride and idealism.

You're jumping to some serious extremes there without even realizing it. To pull an in-series example, Yuna could have done as her father did, and turned one of her Guardians into her Final Aeon to defeat Sin. It would have worked. Sin's rampage would end and millions would have experienced ten years of peace at the cost of a mere two lives. But the Final Summoning wasn't addressing the root of the problem, merely cloaking itself in a "necessity" that was too great to allow itself to be questioned, built up ever further as more and more was sacrificed. By your logic, it would have been better for Yuna to die there than to put the whole of Spira at risk for a chance to end that cycle of guilt for good. (Yeah, I use FFX a lot, but only because it's an A+ treatise on the relationship between self-worth and sacrifice.)

We have twice in HW been saved by the sacrifices of others. They lost their lives to save ours. Are we bad people because of that?

No, but we aren't exactly drawing a line in the sand and saying "no more," either. We simply accept the necessity of sacrifice and move on, ad nauseam. Rather than argue this out further, since you seem pretty entrenched in the "sacrifice is beautiful, and we should sacrifice more to keep our sacrifices form being in vain!" camp that I can't even at this point, I'm just going to quote Soul Sacrifice Delta and be done. "A world that demands sacrifice isn't worth saving."

We're fresh pieces in an endless war between light and dark that we know next to nothing about, and our loyalty is driven by stakes we perceive as too high to question. Signs suggest we're about to start questioning, and that's a good thing for us and the world (anthropomorphic mothercrystal optional).

[Frederick22]

snip

I think we have more than enought evidence that support that Hydaelin is not a primal.

If she is a primal Fenral, what is Zordiark? So amaisingly he is not? Or both are primals or non of them.

[Fenral]

I think we have more than enought evidence that support that Hydaelin is not a primal.

I don't think we have any. My point is less that she is specifically for sure a primal and more that we're operating on faith no differently than the worshipers of Ifrit, Titan, Garuda, Leviathan, Ramuh, Bismarck, or Ravana. The only difference between us and them is that no "more enlightened" beings have come along to point out that... oh, wait. I think I've figured out what's going on. The Ascians are foils for the Warriors of Light. If it's cool for us to go around stepping on lesser gods that ours might live, how is that any different from the Ascians? And please don't pretend we haven't already justified some degree of wholesale slaughter as a tragic necessity.

If she is a primal Fenral, what is Zordiark? So amaisingly he is not? Or both are primals or non of them.

Probably both. I was more objecting to the conflation of Hydaelyn and the Lifestream, since aside from both being billed as the source of all life, they operate very differently. The Lifestream is nature itself, a great unknowable that we nonetheless need to survive. Hydaelyn, on the other hand, is a personified entity with a benevolent will. A "god," if you will. They aren't the same thing. The Lifestream, much like nature, will preserve itself, and we can either work with or against it at our peril. Hydaelyn, on the other hand, comes bundled with an entire code of conduct that happens to include the suppression of false gods to ensure her continued existence. That's religion, not existence itself.

Honestly, I prefer how Dissidia worked out. Rather than the heroes endlessly sacrificing themselves to save Cosmos, the so-called "king piece" Cosmos surprised everyone by exemplifying the Light's virtues herself, in a move that ultimately dethroned both Chaos and Cosmos. If Hydaelyn truly cares for all her children, the discussion is moot because she wouldn't demand anything of Minfilia.

To get this dead horse galloping in a different direction, what if Minfilia is trying to sacrifice herself against Hydaelyn's wishes? As in, the mothercrystal is ready to let herself fade away in a bid to save her children, but Minfilia is trying to keep her from doing it, at her own expense?

[Nalien]

Hydaelyn, on the other hand, comes bundled with an entire code of conduct that happens to include the suppression of false gods to ensure her continued existence. That's religion, not existence itself.

That's the Scions code of conduct, not Hydaelyns... Granted, the Scions believe they're working for Hydaelyns will, but in reality they've been bumbling around in the dark since their inception. The Scions believe that Primal summoning is harmful to Hydaelyn, but there has never been a decree from the heavens telling us to go out and put Primals down. That's on us, and I wouldn't be surprised, given that Elidibus and his Warriors of Darkness are now doing the same thing, if Minfilia comes back and tells us we've been doing it wrong. Given what we've seen with Leviathan and Thordan, Primals seem like a literal deus ex machina for dealing with the Ascian threat... I really can't help but wonder if there is something more there... Are the current Primals bad? Sure, but who has been summoning them, or better yet, who taught those people how to summon them?

If I was an Ascian, and I knew Primals could stop me, I'd set the board up so that people forget what Primals are for and fight them for me. I'd set it up so everyone loses their way and fights each other, rather than working together against a common threat. Likewise, if absolutely nothing happens to the Ascians from here on out, and in a thousand years they're still kicking about, as an Ascian I'd probably make sure people don't ever find White Auracite again, I'd spread the myth that it gives Super-Cancer or something, to ensure people never mine it to trap Ascians again...

[Cilia]

Hydaelyn is supposed to be the physical form of source of Aether, and therefore lifeforce, for the world. That's why as she gets weaker Aetheric levels start to drop one would assume.

...

The other thing we should consider is Minfilia's current situation might not be permanent. This might be a stop gap measure. We just have far too little info to go on at the moment. I wouldn't leap to the conclusion that this is evidence of Hydaelyn going bad.

The chess motif isn't quite proper here. Hydaelyn is not the king piece; she is the board itself, and the Ascians' apparent goal is to win by destroying it through attrition. It is war, and that sometimes means having to take drastic, unprecedented actions - but can we really say our side is better if our goddess is going to ask for sacrifices, temporary, necessary, or otherwise? Should we reject making sacrifices and throw away the sacrifices of others in the name of pride and idealism?

No, on both accounts. If we're going to offer up people as sacrifices, we're only trading blood for time. However, when you speak of "throwing away the sacrifices of others for pride and idealism" do not forget the sunk cost fallacy - that is, that ceasing hostilities causes sacrifices (etc.) to devalue. This is a big argument for fighting to the last man, but it's also a major fallacy - throwing your life away because others did so is not good or wise and does nobody any good.

Are we bad people because others sacrificed themselves for us? Well, no. Those decisions are out of our hands, but we should never be complicit in others planning to do so and should make every effort to make such sacrifices unnecessary. Which we do, though situations sometimes are out of our control and things end up happening we'd rather not have happened. We can't change what happened, but we can change what will happen... and we should try to make a world where nobody has to sacrifice themselves just to preserve the status quo, much less make things better.

As for Hydaelyn "going bad?" You're still looking at it in terms of absolute, human morality. Hydaelyn isn't "going bad" or "turning out to be bad," but taking actions that seem morally questionable from our perspective. As a goddess, she has a very different point of view than we do. Sacrificing Minfilia is likely a trifle to her - what is one life? - but is incredibly painful to us because, whatever else she may or may not be, Minfilia is our dear friend and we don't want to lose her. We... we already lost her once. Getting her back should be a happy event, but if she's possessed by Hydaelyn, it's not really her and we should take issue with that especially if it was at Hydaelyn's behest. We aren't tools, or chess pieces, in Hydaelyn's game against Zodiark, to be used and sacrificed for the "greater good" when she feels it's necessary. We have feelings and aspirations and goals and other things going on besides... it's unfair to just ask us to drop it all and sacrifice ourselves, which aside from cutting our lives short (or at least miserable) makes everyone who cares for us suffer as well.

Is this a selfish point of view, a selfish wish, an immature way of thinking? Absolutely. ... but being selfish isn't necessarily wrong. It's just being selfish, and there's nothing wrong with wanting something for yourself or having aspirations besides servitude. Our thoughts should not be "what is my next move to stop the Ascians?", but "what will I do when it's all over?"

Hydaelyn isn't "going bad." She just operates on a value system different from ours, and it may clash with our own. Whatever happens then, if anything, is anyone's guess.

... and I acknowledge this is but conjecture based on a piece of artwork, a model, and a screenshot, but I'm not sure what else to make of it. Regardless, I think I'll stop my rambling again.

[Belhi]

Sacrifice is never beautiful but sometimes necessary. I'm not arguing that Hydaelyn is some perfect good and honestly I suspect the conflict between Hydaelyn and Zodiark might end up being more of an Us vs Them situation rather than their being some universal good and evil. I will say that from a morality point of view Hydaelyn will probably be the one we are more likely to sympathise with.

I use Nidhogg as an example. Nidhogg is almost certainly very justified in his hatred of Ishgard and humans in general. After first the Allag and then the who Ratatoskr affair his anger is perfectly understandable. However from a moral standpoint you cant stand with Nidhogg because what he wants to do demands a lot of people getting ground to dust. Likewise, the city states are hardly saints but we said with them against Garlemald because Garlemald is the aggressor.

In the Hydaelyn vs Zodiark situation everything points to Zodiark being the aggressor and his minions basically acting without any care to the collateral damage they do. We defend the people of Eorzea as much as we defend Hydaelyn.

As for my comments on Hydaelyn and the lifestream, I go off what we have in game and out of game. Everything we have been feed points at Hydaelyn being not only the source of Aether (All made one) but a benevolent force. More over I again point to the fact that the whole point of the Ascians spreading primal summoning is to drain Hydaelyn of Aether. As Hydaelyn weakens the Aetheric levels around Eorzea have dropped.

I'd also point out that Hydaelyn's nature could very easily be normal in the universe of FF14 (apart from the whole dividing of the Sea into 14 thing). I think Hydaelyn's existence is probably due to that change in the universe. The rules on godhood aren't really clear in FF14 yet. Hell, even the rule on primals aren't. Just cause primals aren't true gods doesn't mean true gods cant exist.

Really we are heavily operating on speculation here. Whatever has happened to Minfilia and her future role could be vastly less drastic than we are assuming. For all we know she has merely become a voice piece for Hydaelyn so she can interact with the world more easily and at less cost to her strength.