The trinity, party responsibility, and how to try and improve the game from within

[KaitlanKela]

So you would be completely fine with dying so that the healer can artificially inflate his damage numbers over yours? With a system like that in place, the healer can easily gimp it by letting the DD's die at every opportunity to unavoidable damage, which would wind up punishing the DD for something that isn't even their fault while rewarding the healer tor playing poorly.

Except that you'd have to clear the instance to get the bonus. So if healers don't heal boot them because you're not clearing the instance.

Or make it a hp healed + dps done reward. Calculate how much unavoidable damage there is in an instance, multiply by 1.5 or something because invariably people take more than just unavoidable damage, then set a low DPS threshold in addition to that. There, healers who wanna heal can, but they don't get the bonus. Healers who do their job and also DPS get a bonus. Done. Signed, sealed delivered.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Except that you'd have to clear the instance to get the bonus. So if healers don't heal boot them because you're not clearing the instance.
.

Are we talking dungeons, where most people go to farm tomes, or end game raiding? Because if we're talking dungeons, you're more than capable of just two manning it without a single DD. It'd take LONGER sure, but I can't imagine anyone would complain if they got a bonus for punishing the DDers to go as DPS instead of tanks or healers, ESPECIALLY if you have a warrior or a scholar.

[KaitlanKela]

It'd take LONGER sure, but I can't imagine anyone would complain if they got a bonus for punishing the DDers

Um, depends on the bonus. If the dungeon takes twice as long because warrior + sch instead of a four man, but the bonus is not as big as running the dungeon twice, it's not worth it and people won't do it. Furthermore, you could opt to run dungeons undersized, so why queue DF just to let two players die. Seems like an unnecessary waste of time when you can set your run up that way.

And...second suggestion just got...ignored? Nice.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

And...second suggestion just got...ignored? Nice.

I didn't ignore your suggestion, I just feels it opens the door far too wide to intentionally sabotage other players who could otherwise be doing great damage, only for a healer to let them die at certain points, because, "I almost have enough tomes for 'x', so with x seconds of Death and res sickness I can guarantee out damaging that/those DD's." Whateverthe tthreshold actually is, a healer would have the tools to surpass it with needless overhealing instead of keeping the party alive.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Double post since I'm on mobile, but this also assumes that the tank isn't in on it. The tank can easily spin the boss on purpose to cleave the damage dealers as well, and if a tank and healer queued together under such a system, I honestly can't see anything but pain for whatever DPS have the unfortunate luck to be paired up with them. Pardon if I come off too strongly, but I strongly disagree with any kind of system that can be used to sabotage.

[KaitlanKela]

Did you read my suggestion where we don't tell people what the threshold is and it gets calculated in the background? How would someone know if they were close to getting it or not? And if you wanted to run it without DDs, why would you not just run it undersized? Only if you're a troll. And if you are a troll, you were doing it before now.

I don't think you come off too strongly, I understand your concern. I just think it would be very hard to abuse a blind system.

ETA: I just wanted to be clear that I am perfectly fine with the way the game is now. I said it in a prior post. If something like this gets implemented and implemented well, cool. If not, I have absolutely no problem if my run is longer because DPS are being lazy because I'm DPSing. I mean, it irks me, but I'm not gonna throw a tantrum about it. The only person I can control is me and I'm gonna have fun no matter what. So, whatever.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Did you read my suggestion where we don't tell people what the threshold is and it gets calculated in the background? How would someone know if they were close to getting it or not? And if you wanted to run it without DDs, why would you not just run it undersized?

It would only remain a blind system for so long. Someone would inevitably math out what the magic break point would be between a bonus and a punishment, and people would strive to replicate it. In addition, 3.X dungeons can't be undersized, so for law farming, it would still remain a concern.

[KaitlanKela]

It would only remain a blind system for so long. Someone would inevitably math out what the magic break point would be between a bonus and a punishment, and people would strive to replicate it. In addition, 3.X dungeons can't be undersized, so for law farming, it would still remain a concern.

I must say that you are very good at finding abuses. Maybe you should design systems. No sarcasm.

Hmm...What about if the bonus could only be received if the instance was finished with all four players alive? Or if bonus couldn't be received if any party member died more than x times? Basically make it to where eam members dying is disincentivized.

I still think there's something to be said for the efficiency issue. For any grinded item like tomes, efficiency is king. If it's slower to kill off the DDs than it is to cooperate with them, the behavior will select against itself.

[Jim_Berry]

TL;DR :
I guess the best way to summarize this 15k caracters essay would be : "Be social and try to do your best, as a player and as a human" ?

Good read, but I'd like to comment on this bolded text:

Being social goes against a lot of players. If there's a group in PF but you KNOW you can clear it, you ask if you can join with bonus, and most of the times, it's "No!" or a bazillion questions that you just say forget it.

[Felmyst]

Wtf is trinity? Are you kids done trying to create new terms? Its just a classic party since how they are since 1998 designs....