The trinity, party responsibility, and how to try and improve the game from within

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Or you could just reward people for doing more than they are required to complete something.

So you would be completely fine with dying so that the healer can artificially inflate his damage numbers over yours? With a system like that in place, the healer can easily gimp it by letting the DD's die at every opportunity to unavoidable damage, which would wind up punishing the DD for something that isn't even their fault while rewarding the healer tor playing poorly.

[KaitlanKela]

So you would be completely fine with dying so that the healer can artificially inflate his damage numbers over yours? With a system like that in place, the healer can easily gimp it by letting the DD's die at every opportunity to unavoidable damage, which would wind up punishing the DD for something that isn't even their fault while rewarding the healer tor playing poorly.

Except that you'd have to clear the instance to get the bonus. So if healers don't heal boot them because you're not clearing the instance.

Or make it a hp healed + dps done reward. Calculate how much unavoidable damage there is in an instance, multiply by 1.5 or something because invariably people take more than just unavoidable damage, then set a low DPS threshold in addition to that. There, healers who wanna heal can, but they don't get the bonus. Healers who do their job and also DPS get a bonus. Done. Signed, sealed delivered.

[Istede]

Unless you have every single instance on farm, yes, there's a lot of places where you don't have downtime due to people screwing up and you having to bring them up. Even in Sastasha it's possible to need to heal every GCD, on triple pulls, for example.

Frankly I have downtime even on big pulls, unless there's a screw-up like you say. Even then, though, I may have to heal nonstop for 15 or 20s, then the damage begins to to taper off and I go right back into clerics.

Your example though, it takes a screw up or someone purposely pulling almost an entire floor of a dungeon to require me to only heal, what does that say about the game?

Where is the instance that requires me to use Eos with a WHM co-healer and that has such frequent and powerful tank-busters that I can't even spend 3 GCDs not topping and shielding the tank? That is the kind of stuff I am talking about. Until a fight like that exists, I will view non-DPSing healers as C or D students.

[Istede]

There's your problem. You aren't actually playing a healer, you're playing a DPS job. Even during progression scholar's barely heal directly, they mostly just spam damage skills because their fairy is more than enough to help the real healer.

I heal plenty when needed. Not my fault that WHM is such an obscenely powerful healer that my healing or mitigation is only necessary in certain parts of some fights. I would love a fight where both healers had to heal the whole time in order to clear. Nothing like that exists.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Except that you'd have to clear the instance to get the bonus. So if healers don't heal boot them because you're not clearing the instance.
.

Are we talking dungeons, where most people go to farm tomes, or end game raiding? Because if we're talking dungeons, you're more than capable of just two manning it without a single DD. It'd take LONGER sure, but I can't imagine anyone would complain if they got a bonus for punishing the DDers to go as DPS instead of tanks or healers, ESPECIALLY if you have a warrior or a scholar.

[KaitlanKela]

It'd take LONGER sure, but I can't imagine anyone would complain if they got a bonus for punishing the DDers

Um, depends on the bonus. If the dungeon takes twice as long because warrior + sch instead of a four man, but the bonus is not as big as running the dungeon twice, it's not worth it and people won't do it. Furthermore, you could opt to run dungeons undersized, so why queue DF just to let two players die. Seems like an unnecessary waste of time when you can set your run up that way.

And...second suggestion just got...ignored? Nice.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

And...second suggestion just got...ignored? Nice.

I didn't ignore your suggestion, I just feels it opens the door far too wide to intentionally sabotage other players who could otherwise be doing great damage, only for a healer to let them die at certain points, because, "I almost have enough tomes for 'x', so with x seconds of Death and res sickness I can guarantee out damaging that/those DD's." Whateverthe tthreshold actually is, a healer would have the tools to surpass it with needless overhealing instead of keeping the party alive.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Double post since I'm on mobile, but this also assumes that the tank isn't in on it. The tank can easily spin the boss on purpose to cleave the damage dealers as well, and if a tank and healer queued together under such a system, I honestly can't see anything but pain for whatever DPS have the unfortunate luck to be paired up with them. Pardon if I come off too strongly, but I strongly disagree with any kind of system that can be used to sabotage.

[KaitlanKela]

Did you read my suggestion where we don't tell people what the threshold is and it gets calculated in the background? How would someone know if they were close to getting it or not? And if you wanted to run it without DDs, why would you not just run it undersized? Only if you're a troll. And if you are a troll, you were doing it before now.

I don't think you come off too strongly, I understand your concern. I just think it would be very hard to abuse a blind system.

ETA: I just wanted to be clear that I am perfectly fine with the way the game is now. I said it in a prior post. If something like this gets implemented and implemented well, cool. If not, I have absolutely no problem if my run is longer because DPS are being lazy because I'm DPSing. I mean, it irks me, but I'm not gonna throw a tantrum about it. The only person I can control is me and I'm gonna have fun no matter what. So, whatever.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Did you read my suggestion where we don't tell people what the threshold is and it gets calculated in the background? How would someone know if they were close to getting it or not? And if you wanted to run it without DDs, why would you not just run it undersized?

It would only remain a blind system for so long. Someone would inevitably math out what the magic break point would be between a bonus and a punishment, and people would strive to replicate it. In addition, 3.X dungeons can't be undersized, so for law farming, it would still remain a concern.