The trinity, party responsibility, and how to try and improve the game from within

[KaitlanKela]

I both agree and disagree.

I agree that Tanks and Healers DPS has allowed actual DPS to (on occasion, not everyone) be lazy in content because a good healer/tank will pick up the slack and it will go unnoticed.

HOWEVER, this isn't really a design issue, because there is no cap on group DPS. If everyone worked toward clearing the instance as best they could, no matter what color their icon is, the run will be better than if one person decided to only do the bare minimum of what is necessary.

Also, I've said this in other threads too: The trinity is for DF purposes only. If it was so essential then the phrase "composition not imposed on pre-formed parties" would not exist. The trinity's purpose is to ensure that a group of random players has a diverse enough combined toolkit to clear an instance easily. Once you're in the instance, ALL party members objectives are the same, and a good team player will be using 100% of their given toolkit to successfully achieve those goals efficiently. Again, the color of their icon shouldn't matter here. It really is not the end of the world if the "trinity" gets broken down a little bit. It's just an arbitrary classification.

Any player DELIBERATELY choosing to do less than their best is being inconsiderate. Not against the rules per se, but there may be consequences imposed within the group and since the choice to play sub-optimally was made, personal responsibility needs to be taken for that choice.

[Fevelle]

as healers DPSing is a norm

Show me where on the ToS is it called a norm. Show me where on the game it says explicitly that "healers DPSing are a norm". It's a fine mentality, but this one line of your post irks me.

It is a norm forced by the community, not by the devs.

So it IS NOT a norm, just a common agreement between a large part of the playerbase. As a healer who DPS every time I can, it REALLY bothers me when people try to force healer DPS to people who don't want to do it.

[KaitlanKela]

Show me where on the ToS is it called a norm. Show me where on the game it says explicitly that "healers DPSing are a norm". It's a fine mentality, but this one line of your post irks me.

Healers have DPS abilities
Using all your abilities is considered "the norm" when playing a videogame
Therefore, Healers DPS is the norm

[Felis]

Healers have DPS abilities
Using all your abilities is considered "the norm" when playing a videogame
Therefore, Healers DPS is the norm

Say that to the Summoners who never summon their Titan-Egi, so the tank can use his damage skills and don't have to build up enmity.

[Kosmos992k]

I like your core pont, at least it appears to be the main point which is that the trinity is breaking down because everyone is measured by their dps and DDs are just not that powerful. That forces everyone into the same mold - DD and DD-lite.

I have a solution in mind. Leave things as they are for solo play, but when in a party make tanks tankier (increase damage resistance and aggro multiplier), and do less DPS (reduce attack potency), make Healers healier (strongerbuffs and heals) and do less DPS (reduce attack potency), make DDs stronger (increase potency of attacks), but squishier (decrease damage/status resistance.

This restores DD to the correct place in a party, while at the same time compensating tanks and healers by strengthening their respective roles. Since this is a buffonly when in a party, it doesn't alter solo capability, but for group play it encourages the trinity and knowing your role.

[DPZ2]

I have a solution in mind.

Nice solution there. Thanks.

[Iagainsti]

Great write up, OP. I am one of the people who believe the traditional trinity idea doesn't apply to this game, due to exactly your points on the roles, and who hopes that 4.0 will bring more utility to the damage dealer class, allowing them to expand on their role as more than just a damage dealer(like the old Bard LBs, 1 bar gave a damage boost to all party members, while 2,3 bars gave raid wide heals)

[Kuwagami]

I have a solution in mind. Leave things as they are for solo play, but when in a party make tanks tankier (increase damage resistance and aggro multiplier), and do less DPS (reduce attack potency), make Healers healier (strongerbuffs and heals) and do less DPS (reduce attack potency), make DDs stronger (increase potency of attacks), but squishier (decrease damage/status resistance.

This restores DD to the correct place in a party, while at the same time compensating tanks and healers by strengthening their respective roles. Since this is a buffonly when in a party, it doesn't alter solo capability, but for group play it encourages the trinity and knowing your role.

I gave a thought to it after reading you, but I can't see it working any different than what we have now. Tanks would still maximize their dps as much as they can (and that would just make it harder for them than now because they already don't have hate issues, except PLD), healers would have more time to do nothing (stronger heals mean more uptime for other stuff, but you nerf this other stuff), and DDs would just die quicker to everything thrown at them in raids.

The problem lies in the core of the system in my opinion, and you'd need to rework it entirely to either enforce the current system by making the DD heavy on the utility part (to justify their lack of significant output compared to the tanks) and thus have roles which are balanced in their output but bring a different input for the party (tankyness, heal and support), or to get rid of it and return to the basis with the DDs having the only significant dps of all the jobs.

Like this for example :

I am one of the people who believe the traditional trinity idea doesn't apply to this game, due to exactly your points on the roles, and who hopes that 4.0 will bring more utility to the damage dealer class, allowing them to expand on their role as more than just a damage dealer(like the old Bard LBs, 1 bar gave a damage boost to all party members, while 2,3 bars gave raid wide heals)

No matter which side you're going to, you're pissing off a bunch of people though.

[DPZ2]

The problem lies in the core of the system in my opinion, and you'd need to rework it entirely ...

Reworking the game entirely to mitigate or eliminate Tank/Healer/DPS would mean writing a new game with a different feel to it. To this point I have not seen a successful reworking of the Trinity that still felt like an MMO. Anytime you have an instance/encounter where damage needs to be either mitigated or healed, you invoke the Trinity.

There are nice systems that allow you to change your part in that triangle by using different weapons (GW2), but game designers always appear to think world encounters should be punishing engagements where death is always one failed heal away.

I haven't encountered any persistent world FPS yet, so maybe that genre would fit the bill.

[Kosmos992k]

I gave a thought to it after reading you, but I can't see it working any different than what we have now. Tanks would still maximize their dps as much as they can (and that would just make it harder for them than now because they already don't have hate issues, except PLD), healers would have more time to do nothing (stronger heals mean more uptime for other stuff, but you nerf this other stuff), and DDs would just die quicker to everything thrown at them in raids.

I understand. Let me explain what I was thinKing in those terms specifically.

The idea was to make tank and healer DPS small enough that is comparatively inconsequential compared to DD DPS. DDs become more powerful, but weaker in defense requiring more support from tanks and healers. Healers may have better output, but with fragile DDs they need to focus on healing more, tanks too need to help with mitigation where possible. So both healer and tank end up sharing the load of party support in addition to their primary role, giving DDs a clear road to do their thing.

You identified a problem with the homogenization of damage dealing in FFXIV, I think it's a big problem, because it really diminishes the power and role of DDs.

Imagine battles where PLD *has* to use cover to protect a BLM or SMN, or perhaps even a DRG, whereshields and other mitigation effects from tank/healer skills are absolutely needed to mitigate damage on DDs so the healers can keep up. By making DDs more fragile, it's more important that the tanks hold aggro andpick up adds, so they have better aggro multipliers. Pushing DD DPS higher and otherrole's DPS lower, you create the differentiation that makes each role special and different.

If healer/tank DPS is low enough, they will not be able to prevail without DDs, and so they must protect the DDs, heal them, and even raise them, in order to complete a fight.