Wish FF14 would transition to FFE job/skill system

[Kurogaea]

so you pick this comment to quote instead of the one with the breakdown of what "massive" is in the context of an mmo. others said it to you in another thread, FFE is a MH clone.

After looking at it, it actually looks and plays more like a phantasy star clone with a mix of 14 in it. Bosses act like they do in 14 (less aoe-y but aoes exist and damage is often unavoidable) and in MH bosses are unpredictable but you can dodge just about everything if you see it coming (no visible telegraphs for the most part). Though in phantasy star you can avoid stuff like in monster hunter, just less quickly imo. Anyways yeah, explorers is like a phantasy star- 14 hybrid :/

....Is it me or the bosses in that game seem a bit more stupid though?

Edit: also enemies can miss if you stand in front of em not moving....that doesn't happen in monster hunter. I'm kinda disappointed that it isn't a monster hunter clone honestly X(

[Nektulos-Tuor]

so you pick this comment to quote instead of the one with the breakdown of what "massive" is in the context of an mmo. others said it to you in another thread, FFE is a MH clone.

You act as if that kind of class system can't work in an MMO when it has successfully in the past. People just "play it safe".

People act like its a new system, when they pretty much copied World of Warcraft, and other MMOs and put a Final Fantasy Skin on it as if its a big deal. They polished it, but its nothing special.

FFXIV is probably the best "Themepark" MMO out there, but it literally does not do anything else, its afraid to step outside the fence. However, for what it is, its polished. However, what new things did they bring to the table? Nothing.

A multi class system, and more variety in dungeons is exactly what the game needs to make it fresh. It has the perfect engine and optimization to do it. Too bad a lot of the money for the game is going in other projects and localization is making them make content specifically for China/Korea.

[Kaze3434]

You act as if that kind of class system can't work in an MMO when it has successfully in the past.
snip.

no, i act like changing the main way fighting is done this late in the game is a bad idea, and again, a balancing nightmare. regardless of what others have said other games have, they have some form of balance in them, exactly how much varies.

[Zumi]

If there was like pick any cross class skills and no balance there would be one super build that had all the most OP skills. Not using this build would lead the person to be mocked by other players. And you get more people complaining how random DF player didn't have X, Y, Z skills set so they were doing low dps.

[Malzian]

You say it like we don't have a choice but to play with these elitest a-holes. What happened to playing with friends? Balance is what SE has been doing forever. dps numbers would be lowered or increased as "balance" commands it.

Well, considering that unless you avoid the DF entirely you're going to run into someone now and then. Playing with friends is fine, but unless your friends are playing with you consistently you will face this at some point, especially if you ever consider getting into the serious end-game content. However, DPS numbers is only -part- of the issue when choosing your builds and is also heavily dependent upon player skill with a particular job. However... even playing with friends, if you're a WAR without Provoke trying to run 8-man content with a tank-swap mechanic you're crippling and killing your group because of it. Mathematics weight heavily into it, especially when both DPS and Healing checks can be really tight... but your overall build will come down to the things you -have- to have and your choice gets whittled away until it's just pointless otherwise.

[Kurogaea]

Good stuff

Still won't stop someone from saying "Oh god d******, another Astro in this trash filled dungeon. Gonna be a long ride" Or "Of course, a dragoon in this titan run, what will happen I wonder?"


Fairly I'll put something more relevent to dps numbers (which I hate discussing on the forums for f***Ing m******* ******** ********** reasons". If I played my blm even slightly below what I should be doing, someone with a parser or spends too much time checking dps numbers will point me out and say, "This summoner is doing more dps than you, use your rotations lol." Or if I'm a monk and happen to get knocked around alot or happen to mispress a button on my rotation "Ugh, scrub monk and omg why are you using the tank pose (w/e)" I'd answer most likely with "So I'd have better defense to resist your f****** whining" (I'm not cursing at you at anyway btw but omg these people I meet).

About the shunning of players: People worry so much on how others would treat you in this game but do people ever remember the fact that these people that point out this stuff and shun players are just jackasses behind keyboards and controllers thinking their better than others? Maybe on skill level or gear wise, but if I had to take my time to study a game so in depth that I knew the best strat, class, and style of gameplay for every situation, and demand everyone who owns this subscription game to play that way, then I'd be a complete a*******, because we all know the game was not meant to be played in such a strict specific way and I'm criticizing you for not playing how I want you to play. And no, not everyone will want you to play this way. Not everyone is selfish and neither am I. Sorry for the self censoring

Anyways it's SE's job to make sure all classes are working properly, if they can be used in all situations like other classes then its alright. Balancing is then taking to account. So no matter who says what is better, players still have a choice to play their desired class.

quicknote: In earlier dungeons I believe provoke is kinda unnecessary, even in the MSQ trials. I'd just use a different class or if your team is nice and innovative they could plan ahead and make sure the warrior and pally (or tank with provoke) is close with enmity levels and can switch easily that way. Not all is lost without provoke. Even with new adds, just need to act quicker. Crippling the team is kinda pushing it I think.

[Callback]

I enjoy tanking, am indifferent to healing, and find DPS jobs uninteresting and boring. My roommate enjoys healing, has dabbled in tanking, but also hates how boring DPS is. Our friend enjoys minmaxing and killing things faster than should be possible, feels indifferent about tanking, but doesn't enjoy focusing on keeping us alive. We've all tried the different roles, and we've all found a niche gameplay that we enjoy.

I don't think we'd enjoy an MMO that didn't have at least a trinity system in place.

I disagree with your statement. The trinity has made gameplay in MMOs more enjoyable than any shooter I've played.

EDIT: People are also forgetting that FFXIV is an MMORPG - a Massively Multiplayer Online ROLE-Playing Game. In almost every RPG out there, different characters fit into different roles. They aren't shoehorned or forced, they just have strengths and weaknesses that separate them from everyone else. The "trinity" system actually goes back to traditional tabletop RPGs and even to the original, from which all that we know and love here has grown: Dungeons and Dragons. People play different roles that have different ways of contributing to group success. But people become so damn focused on numbers and efficiency and mathematical equilibrium that they stop playing a game they enjoy, and start working at a job they pay for. There's so much more to FFXIV and even the MMORPG genre in general than just having equilibrium and balance, and I think it would do good for more people to remember that.

EDIT 2: Even in MOBAs and most shooters, different characters have different roles according to their abilities. Go into any match of HotS without a tank or support class, and your team will not last.

I never argued against roles. I argued against the trinity, where the game itself forces tanks and healers to be a necessity. It works in something like D&D because that is a turn-based RPG where combat is all about strategy. In an MMO it fails to create an interesting core gameplay loop. Why don't you try an action MMO and see for yourself? Your post makes it sound like you were unaware they existed.

Funny, I always thought that the Trinity of Tank/Healer/DPS was developed because otherwise most MMO players would quit after the first dungeon instance when an end-boss threw out a cleave that was higher damage than everyone's health points combined.

If WoW had not become so popular, do you think we would even have MMOs today? It was a pretty small niche market, with only thousands of users playing in any one game.

All that aside -- name a couple of MMORPGs that do not utilize the Trinity [in any fashion] that have any sort of popular following.

Inquiring minds would like to try them out.

In a non-trinity MMO, that boss' attack would be avoided or blocked by any smart members of the party, and ones that didn't would lose a big chunk of health and learn a lesson not to let it happen again. Getting hit is a punishment for your mistakes, not some default truth you have to accept. Characters can even HAVE some heals, as a way of lowering the impact of those mistakes without invalidating them entirely.


As for just a handful of examples off the top of my head,

Mabinogi
Blade & Soul
Vindictus
DFO
Warframe
Dragon Nest
Black Desert
Lunia(may no longer be around)
Maple Story 2
Shin Megami Tensei: Imagine

All vastly different styles of combat. All great in their own ways. None enforce the trinity.

[Jpec07]

I never argued against roles. I argued against the trinity, where the game itself forces tanks and healers to be a necessity. It works in something like D&D because that is a turn-based RPG where combat is all about strategy. In an MMO it fails to create an interesting core gameplay loop. Why don't you try an action MMO and see for yourself? Your post makes it sound like you were unaware they existed.

The difficulty with a system that doesn't enforce it is that if you show up in a group as a tank, you won't be allowed to tank. People will pull ahead of you, and will ignore any pleas to follow the system. Just thinking about it is giving me flashbacks to dungeons and scenarios in WoW: Mists of Pandaria, where the mobs did so little damage and died so easily that there was no need for any sort of role system. It was incredibly frustrating, because my character was built to be able to survive, and to prevent other people from taking damage, but all of the utility I brought was ignored, and thrown out the window. And especially considering how little damage tanks did natively, I felt utterly useless in that content, which made the game utterly unenjoyable.

Our guild healer experienced the same thing. Classes had so many self-heals that they trivialized most content, and left her Smiting and Penancing to contribute what minuscule amounts of DPS a Disc Priest could. It actually drove us to drop WoW for a while very early in the expansion, because our favorite activity (small group content) was not at all fun for us.

In a system where there is no enforcement of roles, everyone becomes DPS. Tanks aren't allowed to tank, and if they try, they're left behind. Healers aren't allowed to heal, and if they try, they're scolded for not DPSing. Everyone is expected to Zerg rush trash and bosses to death, and there's nothing unique about any of it.

[Kuwagami]

iirc, Ragnarok online and the incoming Tree of Savior are using the trinity system, and have (somewhat) balanced PvP because the OP aspects of some jobs get flooded in the mass of players. Can't have this here because the PvP isn't exactly "massive" (even though the 72 man seal rock can be a joyous clusterfuck of light and sparkles), but the trinity CAN do things even when individual balance is out of whack.

[MugenMugetsu]

The "trinity" sucks. It has never been good. It only exists because WoW became so popular after taking it and everyone, Squeenix included, has been constantly trying to copy their success...

Final Fantasy XI was out before WoW. FFXI utilized the trinity system. SE developed FFXI. Sooooooooo, who copied who? Admittedly, SE took from Everquest, but in your example you are falsely claiming that SE took the idea from Blizzard, which is not the case. Sorry to nitpick. Not trying to be rude either. I just had to clear that up cause it really grinded my gears. lol

...we don't have CC and Support Classes anymore, in the right hands they are OP, so we remove them.

Do we need classes dedicated to crowd control only? We have numerous actions for crowd control. Paralyze, Sleep, Bind, Slow, Silence, Stun, Reduced Evasion, Decreased Attack Power, Decreased Movement Speed, etc. and most jobs have some, if not all, of these associated with attacks, or actions that they can perform, and we also have enfeebling potions that can apply these debuffs to mobs. There is also enmity generating actions, and enmity reducing actions, which are forms of CC.

So again, why do we need a job that is dedicated to CC?