Wish FF14 would transition to FFE job/skill system

[Jpec07]

I never argued against roles. I argued against the trinity, where the game itself forces tanks and healers to be a necessity. It works in something like D&D because that is a turn-based RPG where combat is all about strategy. In an MMO it fails to create an interesting core gameplay loop. Why don't you try an action MMO and see for yourself? Your post makes it sound like you were unaware they existed.

The difficulty with a system that doesn't enforce it is that if you show up in a group as a tank, you won't be allowed to tank. People will pull ahead of you, and will ignore any pleas to follow the system. Just thinking about it is giving me flashbacks to dungeons and scenarios in WoW: Mists of Pandaria, where the mobs did so little damage and died so easily that there was no need for any sort of role system. It was incredibly frustrating, because my character was built to be able to survive, and to prevent other people from taking damage, but all of the utility I brought was ignored, and thrown out the window. And especially considering how little damage tanks did natively, I felt utterly useless in that content, which made the game utterly unenjoyable.

Our guild healer experienced the same thing. Classes had so many self-heals that they trivialized most content, and left her Smiting and Penancing to contribute what minuscule amounts of DPS a Disc Priest could. It actually drove us to drop WoW for a while very early in the expansion, because our favorite activity (small group content) was not at all fun for us.

In a system where there is no enforcement of roles, everyone becomes DPS. Tanks aren't allowed to tank, and if they try, they're left behind. Healers aren't allowed to heal, and if they try, they're scolded for not DPSing. Everyone is expected to Zerg rush trash and bosses to death, and there's nothing unique about any of it.

[Ashkendor]

This thread was serious until this guy opened his mouth.

Yeah, pretty much.

Dragon Nest

All vastly different styles of combat. All great in their own ways. None enforce the trinity.

Bad example. The trinity is very much present in Dragon Nest. You can get by in lesser content like dungeons and even nests without a dedicated healer or tank if your players are decently skilled and don't just facetank everything (mostly due to iframes and HP recovery items) but you'd never ever go into a raid without them. Actually, the tanking meta is pretty similar there to what FFXIV's currently is; you can load down a Crusader or a Guardian with a buttload of damage gear and still be a viable tank.

[MugenMugetsu]

The "trinity" sucks. It has never been good. It only exists because WoW became so popular after taking it and everyone, Squeenix included, has been constantly trying to copy their success...

Final Fantasy XI was out before WoW. FFXI utilized the trinity system. SE developed FFXI. Sooooooooo, who copied who? Admittedly, SE took from Everquest, but in your example you are falsely claiming that SE took the idea from Blizzard, which is not the case. Sorry to nitpick. Not trying to be rude either. I just had to clear that up cause it really grinded my gears. lol

...we don't have CC and Support Classes anymore, in the right hands they are OP, so we remove them.

Do we need classes dedicated to crowd control only? We have numerous actions for crowd control. Paralyze, Sleep, Bind, Slow, Silence, Stun, Reduced Evasion, Decreased Attack Power, Decreased Movement Speed, etc. and most jobs have some, if not all, of these associated with attacks, or actions that they can perform, and we also have enfeebling potions that can apply these debuffs to mobs. There is also enmity generating actions, and enmity reducing actions, which are forms of CC.

So again, why do we need a job that is dedicated to CC?

[File2ish]

Final Fantasy XI was out before WoW. FFXI utilized the trinity system. SE developed FFXI. Sooooooooo, who copied who?

How is the trinity defined? Just focusing on the 3 roles, or is it the 3 roles being necessary for forming groups? Sure it had Tanks, DDs, and healers... But it also had support jobs (see: Bard) and hybrids (such as Red Mage, Dancer), so where would those fit in?

FFXI also had sub jobs; which, it can be argued, made every job a hybrid (and broke some jobs, Ninja tanks anyone?). So was it the trinity?

The way I see it, FFXI did not use the trinity.

[Callback]

The difficulty with a system that doesn't enforce it is that if you show up in a group as a tank, you won't be allowed to tank. People will pull ahead of you, and will ignore any pleas to follow the system. Just thinking about it is giving me flashbacks to dungeons and scenarios in WoW: Mists of Pandaria, where the mobs did so little damage and died so easily that there was no need for any sort of role system. It was incredibly frustrating, because my character was built to be able to survive, and to prevent other people from taking damage, but all of the utility I brought was ignored, and thrown out the window. And especially considering how little damage tanks did natively, I felt utterly useless in that content, which made the game utterly unenjoyable.

Our guild healer experienced the same thing. Classes had so many self-heals that they trivialized most content, and left her Smiting and Penancing to contribute what minuscule amounts of DPS a Disc Priest could. It actually drove us to drop WoW for a while very early in the expansion, because our favorite activity (small group content) was not at all fun for us.

In a system where there is no enforcement of roles, everyone becomes DPS. Tanks aren't allowed to tank, and if they try, they're left behind. Healers aren't allowed to heal, and if they try, they're scolded for not DPSing. Everyone is expected to Zerg rush trash and bosses to death, and there's nothing unique about any of it.

You seem to fail to understand. Have you played any of the games I listed? I'm talking games with combat systems designed to avoid forcing that trinity, not more WoW clones that just happen to allow any comp. Heals are optional and generally somewhat small or limited because if you're good you won't get hit. Tanking isn't required since everyone can dodge. If you do want to tank, you generally get a block, counter, grapple, etc. that can be used for that, to hold the enemy in position or keep people behind you safe. Otherwise you might want to be more of a berserker archetype, with massive AoE on your attacks, big damage, and a huge health pool. You would have tons of super armor to make sure you can get them off, but slow animations that make it much easier to get hit. It's not like XIV or WoW where everything in the game has 100% super armor 100% of the time and mobs deal flat out unavoidable damage to whomever they see fit as a target. THAT'S the kind of system that forces a trinity. Other games have combat systems that emphasize skill in aiming your attacks, following up with good combos, recognizing attacks, and dodging the enemy. Damage is a punishment for screwing up. There are still roles, but the roles are different, and not so rigid. Having a class with lower damage but massive AoE lockdown potential makes a sort of controller whose job it is to keep the mos in one place and control the battle to make it easier for allies. Duelists specialize in focusing on one big problem mob and engaging it 1v1, locking it in combat to remove it from the fight the rest of the team is having. Supports focus on buffs or debuffs, sacrificing their own damage for large enhancements to parties. There are solo-friendly classes that have quick attacks and are great at dodging so they can stay alive while on their own as they push through the content.

And most importantly the combat is engaging. You actually have to play the game performing the actions, not just letting your character do its thing while you plug in an order for it to use its skills. Timing, aim, reaction, all important. The combat is active.

Final Fantasy XI was out before WoW. FFXI utilized the trinity system. SE developed FFXI. Sooooooooo, who copied who? Admittedly, SE took from Everquest, but in your example you are falsely claiming that SE took the idea from Blizzard, which is not the case. Sorry to nitpick. Not trying to be rude either. I just had to clear that up cause it really grinded my gears. lol

Never said they invented it, just said the industry as a whole has been flooded with countless games in the same style ever since its popularity boom, trying to copy its success.

[Ashkendor]

And most importantly the combat is engaging. You actually have to play the game performing the actions, not just letting your character do its thing while you plug in an order for it to use its skills. Timing, aim, reaction, all important. The combat is active.

To be fair, most of the games you mentioned are in the Action MMO genre, which is separate from the MMORPG genre.

It's a completely different combat style, and FFXIV can't emulate that without a major overhaul.

[Taei]

TBH I think the overly infatuation with "balance" in MMOs is what killed the old school feeling of MMOs to begin with. The need for balance causes the developers to have over arching control over the tiniest details of the game. And in order for them to save themselves work, they simplify things. That's why Yoshi-P says that he won't implement more choices for job variation because in the end he believes people will pick the best one. Well that's not really the point is it? The point is to create an environment where people can experiement/play/test builds.

For example MOBAs
LoL and any moba game has a lot of balance issues because of the many many choices to build your character(hots is a bit of an exception). Sure the game is never truly "balanced" but does that keep people from playing the game? Last time I checked it doesn't because MOBAs are the fastest growing genre still.

So I don't buy the argument of balance. I think its bad design philosophy and complacency.

[AskaRay]

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So I don't buy the argument of balance. I think its bad design philosophy and complacency.

I think the popularity of MOBAs nowadays is that it's more like a sport - teamwork, watchable by an audience, quick fast matches. Easier to market to non-hardcore gamers. ESPECIALLY the viewing aspect
You know what's not interesting to watch? People leveling up a crafter, or doing a dungeon 200 times.

Anyway you can't compare MOBA and MMORPG balance since they are two different genres with different setups. Might as well compare FFXIV and Starcraft or something.

[Taei]

I think the popularity of MOBAs nowadays is that it's more like a sport - teamwork, watchable by an audience, quick fast matches. Easier to market to non-hardcore gamers. ESPECIALLY the viewing aspect
You know what's not interesting to watch? People leveling up a crafter, or doing a dungeon 200 times.

Anyway you can't compare MOBA and MMORPG balance since they are two different genres with different setups. Might as well compare FFXIV and Starcraft or something.

The point is not to compare MOBA with MMO. The point is that a game that isn't completely "balanced" doesn't necessarily mean its not fun. I think people are forgetting that games are supposed to be fun lol.

[Tilgung]

The point is not to compare MOBA with MMO. The point is that a game that isn't completely "balanced" doesn't necessarily mean its not fun. I think people are forgetting that games are supposed to be fun lol.

Know what isn't fun? Being denied raid (or even EXP party) spots because you're not playing a desirable class. Go read up on FFXI's history (and current state) regarding undesirable jobs.

As a DRG, it wasn't unusual to have to wait weeks to get exp party invites before Treasures of Aht Urgan was released. Even then, it took a fairly large overhaul to make two handed DPS comparable to Dual Wielding DPS outside of very specific situations. As a trade off, Blackmages were basically unusable in EXP set-ups and were only used in raids when zerging wasn't an option.

So much fun if you're maining one of the undesirable classes, look at all that content no one wants to bring you to.

And every MMO has been plagued with this issue at one time or another. The only one I've played that hasn't is Blade and Soul, and that's because it's a completely different beast.