Afterthoughts:Level Capped Dungeons

[Legion88]

They could just make a ilvl sync to the ilvl which drops in the dungeon and it wouldn't be overgeared at release and would keep challenging in some way.

[Whocareswhatmynameis]

I think they need to do something, a lot of people arent having that much fun in the dungeons imo. I think a lot of it is because they so easy that your mind just goes into autopilot w/o really much thought required. This isn't good since the dungeons is one of the major content in the game. We need more dungeons that are like aurum vale and dzemel darkhold so people have to pay attention to what they are doing and aren't falling asleep during dungeon runs.

This problem is only going to get worse in 3.2 when they bump the maximum ilvl up another 30 ilvls and we are still running dungeons that are ilvl 150 or 170 (Level 60 roulltette).

[Kosmos992k]

After we finished a friend of mine asked how it went.
He ranted to me about how he does not want to spend all day in a dungeon, how trash is a waste of time.
For the sake of argument I asked:
"What if they removed Trash from dungeons? What if Dungeons were just bosses? Aka: Boss Rush"
He then replied:
"Then it would be like LFR on WOW. That sucks. I'd leave"**snip**

You have just posted a great post about the complete contradiction posed by a great many burned out and/or bored end-game players.

They don't like trash, don't want puzzled, don't wantdungeons to take time, and don't want just a boss fight. But they do want big dungeons (presumably that can be sprinted through while avoiding all alternate paths, puzzles and trash which would slow them down), they want harder fights, but not fights tha take too long, and the drops must be good enough to entice them to run harder boss fights...etc... It's a complete contradiction, and i my view players such as this should not be playing this game because they really don't like the core gameplay and encounter - aka Dungeons.

Bonus topic:
Cause he said this and it bothers me SEVERELY...
Are Extreme Primals the "REAL" canon fights?!
Cause I seem to recall the MSQ fights being considered the "canonical" fights.

They are, but you encountered the revisionist, some might say elitist, point of view that says that the MSQ events are just there for bads, and the raids and EX primals are the only real fights in the game, MSQ mode is just easy mode for noobs and bads. Of course, it's not true, the MSQ is 'canon' everything else is an optional challenge for those who want a challenge unless it's too hard (such as Alex Savage), or doesn't drop extra phat loot to make it worth running. Otherwise why not just idle in Idylllshire....?



I don't expect my post will be well received by many. Ah well...

Personally, I like dungeons and would like larger dungeons with alternate paths, roaming mobs, respawning mobs and puzzles, but then I though that was kind of the point of adventuring, not just rushing the boss. boiling everything down to a boss rush makes it completely one dimensional and boring. I loathe speed runs, and completely dislike the fact that for level 50 dungeons the ilvl/level sync is so weak that we can essentially ignore most mechanics. Mechanics are what make Boss fights fun, because you employ the strategy needed to overcome the mechanic. Not so any more, now we just burn them down, and over-gear/heal through what were once party wipe mechanics. Perhaps I come from another age when people played games for fun, and now we only play them to cap tomes. Well, I saw we, but I don't cap anything, ever, I'm too busy playing and having fun.

They could just make a ilvl sync to the ilvl which drops in the dungeon and it wouldn't be overgeared at release and would keep challenging in some way.

I agree completely. Previously this suggestion has been shouted down by players who whined that doing this would make it harder for them to speed run content to farm light for their Relic..or to cap their Tomes. The result is content so mind numbingly easy that the same players complain bitterly about the game being too easy, but suggest making dungeons sync more strongly to preserve difficult and those same folks will shout from the highest peaks how that will ruin the game for them. I really wish that SE would stop listening to those voices, they hurt the game more than they help it.

Yoshi made it clear we won't see anything unique about dungeons. After the original Amdapor Keep and Pharos Sirius dungeons were a snooze fest. It's kinda shame really it's like anything that requires thought or mixes up the norm is shunned upon.

You must have played different versions of AK or PS. Pre-nerf PS required actual thought and strategy, but since most groups didn't want to do that, PS in particular became the poster child for dungeon content that was 'too hard'. AK with the original Demon wall was similarly chided over difficulty. I remember running them both, long before I hit ilvl 90. AK requires some thought and strategy, even the trash pulls had to be approached correctly, and the demon wall absolutely requires teamwork and strategy. Pharos was a great dungeon, but it wasn't so great if the DPS didn't understand and/or play the mechanics right. Ultimately both were nerfed and powercreep resulted in them becoming what you described. Original AK and original PS were not snooze fests, assuming of course that you actually wanted to be there instead of standing in More Donuts.

The reason people feel inclined to just rush through dungeons is because they don't offer anything of worth beyond tomes.

You're meant to have fun, running them with friends....that's meant to be a reward too.

On top of that, the dungeons themselves tend to not be challenging, or on release end up being at a level where the majority of players doing them are already overgeared for it.

The original ARR dungeons were not like this, and the level 50 ones were not entirely like that either. If ilvl sync forced gear to the level of that which drops in the dungeon, all those overly easy dungeons would suddenly become challenging again. Perhaps too challenging for some. So we'd probably have to give a 20-ilvl margin in Sync...

The trash mobs themselves don't really pose a great challenge or really force players to approach them differently. Group them up, AOE them down, done. Rinse and repeat.

Overgear is a terrible thing, but like the OP said players don't want challenging trash. So even if level sync was tighter and you had to actually play the trash, people would just complain about the time taken and the effort required and that their uber-gear was nerfed by Sync...

[xJimmehx]

A bit arbitrary examples, but you get the idea. It's not a fixed preference. What kind of dungeon I want to do depends on my mood and budget.

Basically this. And not just this. Everyone is different and wants different things. I would assume more variety in what we can do would be the best answer. It would focus more on "Everyone" and less on a specific audience. Most people probably wont want to sacrifice for the better of the game/community by dividing the content though. So i doubt any change actually happens. I would love it though if it did happen though. Honestly we need a poll and way for the community to discuss things without the fighting and trolling taking over the threads. :P Cant really troll a list of check boxes.

[Derio]

A dungeon is 15 minutes. How is that long?

[Defias]

@Kosmos992k

I agree with alot of your points. I have no anger or malice either.
Maybe SE needs to the reduce the tome grind?
Maybe gear should last for 2 or 3 patches?

I feel like if Dungeons rewarded full clears, and etc players would welcome the "sprawling" labyrinth dungeons so many claim to yearn for.

I just dislike speed runs I feel. I enjoy group gameplay but I dislike spamming AOEs.
I feel like maybe trash mobs need to be more Morbol like.
Something where we once again need to be careful.
I admit the idea to ilvl sync players that was mentioned seemed like a good start.
Folks want challenge but not enough challenge to "slow" them down.
But honestly why are we rushing? To afk in town?

As for our Bonus Topic:
I too feel my friend is the proper definition of elitist. But he thinks he is not. He states that grouping with a casual/solo player like me for the occassional roulette versus doing them with his FC/Raid group as a reason why he isn't Elitist.
Yet he turns around and tells me I don't play any real content.
Gold Saucer, Dungeons, Hardmodes, Beastmen, Hunts, don't count. Only "real endgame" such as Ex Primals & Raids do.

[Maero]

I do not mind dungeons but i would not consider them to be end game
It can get annoying at times i can see that about the mass pull, let's do this in such and such a time, even if i don't mind that
AS for the comment about telling you you do not play real content, that is kind of heresay no? Some players do not like to raid and just play the game for the social aspect, story, etc..

[FeliAiko]

Why are we rushing?

Well as someone pointed out earlier during the week when people are strapped for time (coming home from work/Uni etc) they want to get the dungeons over with as soon as possible so then they get more time to do other things in-game before they have to log off. Others simply because once you've done something repeatedly enough times, it just becomes more efficient to shorten the process as much as possible. Or even in some cases, people feel more challenged by mass pulls where everyone has to be on point for success.

[bass9020]

You must have played different versions of AK or PS. Pre-nerf PS required actual thought and strategy, but since most groups didn't want to do that, PS in particular became the poster child for dungeon content that was 'too hard'. AK with the original Demon wall was similarly chided over difficulty. I remember running them both, long before I hit ilvl 90. AK requires some thought and strategy, even the trash pulls had to be approached correctly, and the demon wall absolutely requires teamwork and strategy. Pharos was a great dungeon, but it wasn't so great if the DPS didn't understand and/or play the mechanics right. Ultimately both were nerfed and powercreep resulted in them becoming what you described. Original AK and original PS were not snooze fests, assuming of course that you actually wanted to be there instead of standing in More Donuts.

Thats what I meant I think my wording was off with that sentence. Pre nerf they were great dungeons, people may not agree but I loved them. Now dungeons are bland and uninteresting. The only thing trash pulls offer now are gates that block you from doing full speed runs.

[AeraLure]

The reason people feel inclined to just rush through dungeons is because they don't offer anything of worth beyond tomes.

This pretty much. You're really there for the tomes, not anything in the dungeon, save the first week or two they are out and maybe you want a glamour piece. It's a problem I have with the game, as opposed to something like PSO where I put thousands of hours into even fewer areas because there were lots of difficult to obtain things to be had in each instance and it was exciting that a rare monster or rare part or weapon with stats better than you had would drop. You wanted to be in the instance, as opposed to here where you want to be done asap, and I think that contributes a lot to DPS races, player arguments, rushing, impatience with newer players, boredom. If they address anything going forward as far as core design concepts in the game, I hope this is one.

Really, running dungeons in this game is best with friends. For me that's where the fun comes in.