Afterthoughts:Level Capped Dungeons

[Defias]

So I'm home with a fever. But figured I'd knock out my roulettes.

I got Saint Mocianne's Arboretum. And it was absolutely unenjoyable. The group rushed and our tank moaned about every pull. Despite the gearnof the dps (myself included, I'm not a high ilvl BLM I'm trying to get the PlagueBringer Gloves.)

After we finished a friend of mine asked how it went.
He ranted to me about how he does not want to spend all day in a dungeon, how trash is a waste of time.
For the sake of argument I asked:
"What if they removed Trash from dungeons? What if Dungeons were just bosses? Aka: Boss Rush"
He then replied:
"Then it would be like LFR on WOW. That sucks. I'd leave"
Me:
"But you hate trash pulls, hate trash, feel trash is pointless, and you resent non-mass pull groups because they take all day. You want to be in & out so why not just have it be bosses?"
Him:
"Dungeons aren't endgame. They shouldn't take as long as they do. They are a waste of time. Thats why I want to be done with them so fast."
Me:
"For players like me they are endgame. Also I find them fun when everyone isn't trying to lightspeed through them. You must hate games like Diablo then?"
Him:
"Just bosses is boring. But I don't want puzzles either. This game is full of bads. Last thing we need is puzzles."
Me:
"So you don't want trash, you don't want puzzles, but you often say you want sprawling dungeons, yet you don't want dungeons to take all day, and you dislikenonly having bosses. What do you want? You rush through dungeons then stand around in a city all day complaining about be being bored. But any suggestion to lengthen or shorten dungeons is wrong."

I WISH I had screenshot the conversation. Hindsight of 20/20...
Anyways what are your thoughts?
Should dungeons be free of trash mobs so they can be done and over with quicker?
Should puzzles replace trash mobs?
Maybe dungeons should just become solo dungeons like in Elder Scrolls Online so players can complete them at their own pace & not hinder those who rush/be rushed by the group?

It feels like the vast majority of players want to just be done with the dungeons. So would dungeons only having bosses be fun? They would be quicker.
Should dungeons go away and just be trials?
Or...on the flip side...
Should new measures be taken to slow down dungeons?
Perhaps enemies get a "Strength in numbers" buff when you pull too many. Allowing the monsters to overwhelm players with ease.
Or gates that cannot be attacked until the trash is slain. (Honeycombs...)

Ideas? Thoughts?

Bonus topic:
Cause he said this and it bothers me SEVERELY...
Are Extreme Primals the "REAL" canon fights?!
Cause I seem to recall the MSQ fights being considered the "canonical" fights.

[zcrash970]

Dungeons do feel kinda pointless in this game tbh especially at endgame. They never provide a challenge, the gear is replace in a few months, the gear is never as good as "raid" gear, and they are always extremely short for mmo standards. They really only serve 2 points, in my opinion. Glamour gear and tomes and I haven't capped since November....

[AskaRay]

I like the dungeons. I love doing dungeons.

I do wish there was a bit more variety- for example, more paths to choose from, a bit more exploration, etc. Maybe even more puzzles.
Of course that's "too hard" for people; they can't rush through and get their tomes that way. Ugh.

[FeliAiko]

The reason people feel inclined to just rush through dungeons is because they don't offer anything of worth beyond tomes. On top of that, the dungeons themselves tend to not be challenging, or on release end up being at a level where the majority of players doing them are already overgeared for it. The trash mobs themselves don't really pose a great challenge or really force players to approach them differently. Group them up, AOE them down, done. Rinse and repeat.

As for the Primals, I believe both are canon. Extremes are what the Primals become when you use more crystals to summon them (plus a sacrifice of the person summoning it, I believe). Or alternatively you could say the Extremes are how the Primals really are but for the purposes of DF they have to make the fights easier, hence nerf the level of their damage/skills in the MSQ.

[Zojha]

It's a difficult thing, really.

On a nice, saturday noon, just after finishing my meal, I'd love to go and explore a bigger dungeon with a few people. I am sated, have the rest of the day off and can spend a good amount of time puzzling and crawling around in a dungeon.
On a busy monday evening, I'd rather just rush through one in 20 minutes and be done. I don't have time nor nerves and want my tomes ASAP. If there's no trash on the way all the better.

A bit arbitrary examples, but you get the idea. It's not a fixed preference. What kind of dungeon I want to do depends on my mood and budget.

[Bixillarla]

Dungeons are fine they way they are, not everyone is max level and out geared for them. There are plenty of new players leveling that need the gear from them. I enjoy doing dungeons even maxed out. I do my daily roulettes and have fun with it.

I do not want puzzles added to the dungeons, I hate dungeons that do this. I want a straightforward path, like they are now.

I do hate tanks who want to pull everything at once, I prefer a slower pace. I play the game to relax and enjoy myself not rush through everything and light speed.

[SendohJin]

SE isn't going to do this because it will take longer time to develop but dungeons should have multiple paths and multiple objectives.

paths that have more trash mobs for AOE pulls.
paths that have big trash mobs where AOE pulls don't make sense (like 3x malboros).
paths that have an extra mini-boss.

players are going to flip out in DF because people will want to go different ways.

puzzles are not a good idea unless it's single player stuff like what happen at the end of the 3.1 MSQ. those should be longer and you should be able to replay those for like 1/3 the tomes of a normal dungeon daily.

[Alahra]

I wouldn't mind something like a Boss Rush mode for dungeons, but otherwise they're one of the main avenues of the game where AoE damage is relevant, so removing trash would really make a large chunk of each class's toolkit largely worthless. And seriously, tons of the AoE skills in this game are great fun (Deathflare, Flare, Elixir Field, and so on).

Overall, they're still the content where I have the most fun. I just wish we were still getting three per patch instead of two per patch because the content we've gotten in the trade-off hasn't been worth it so far.

[Ashkendor]

I'll be honest here, it sounds to me like your friend just likes to have things to bitch about.

He's the type that'll never be happy no matter what SE does.

Bonus topic:
Cause he said this and it bothers me SEVERELY...
Are Extreme Primals the "REAL" canon fights?!
Cause I seem to recall the MSQ fights being considered the "canonical" fights.

If I remember correctly, all three difficulties are canon (where applicable, after the first three primals we've only ever had two difficuties for each one). Story mode is the original summoning, then later (post-Praetorium) they are resummoned using more crystals, and after that they are resummoned again using more crystals and some pretty grisly sacrifices to create ritual focus items (which were token turn-ins for the old weekly quest Primal Focus that can still be found in Mor Dhona).

[bass9020]

Yoshi made it clear we won't see anything unique about dungeons. After the original Amdapor Keep and Pharos Sirius dungeons were a snooze fest. It's kinda shame really it's like anything that requires thought or mixes up the norm is shunned upon. What they should do is make all these instance dungeons actual open world areas at the same time and have unique themes to them, while also having the instance form working the way they are now.

I think that would be a pretty cool feature and would make the open world a bit more lively.