Required Class/Rank failed - Can we have Optimal Rank and Favoured Class back?

[Fensfield]

Hah, if only!

I'd love it to bits if they kicked out these stupid restrictions on which pair of pants I can wear but god knows, if you don't like not being able to wear a particular hat because there's a pointy bit of metal dangling from your belt (or, god forbid, it's green!) you're some sort of whiney freak apparently.

Hell, I'd be happy if they'd only throw out the Discipline restrictions and kept the ones on rank, but I still don't get what was wrong with just really, really ramping up the penalties for wielding the super-elaborate sword your inexperienced gladiator ought have no clue how to use properly, or the bloody great cuirass he's not trained enough to be anything but turned into a slow-moving tinned meal by.

What, do these things just shoot off to one side if we try to touch them now? Is there some sort of repulsive energy field keyed only to the hands of those carrying a particular form of foe-thumping implement?

Still, at least they've promised to remove that bloody colour-locking mechanic..

[RemVye]

I think a lot of the appeal is that it was different. Case in point:



The familiarity of a system in which you can only have one class for your character is not a point in its favour, because there are many benefits to the current system - variety and player choice being the most important, in my opinion. And that's exactly what I'm in favour of for all gear.



As for forcing people to upgrade gear and stimulating the economy, I'd refer to the previous part of your post:



The fact that gear makes a big difference is what will make people get new gear - they don't have to be "forced" in such a literal sense. I don't think the optimal system was to blame for people not getting new gear - the fact that upgrading didn't matter was. Since that has been corrected, I don't see the need for requirements.

(Hmmm.) I don't mind either way to be honest. I'll use whatever system they put in the game, well because I have to lol. I think once they fully implement the new system it will be much more forgiving in its ability to allow people to choose. They will be adding more recipes and Yoshi said something about (24 or 32) different colors for all the armor, IIRC.

Isn't the whole optimal gear thing being argued by people who like to "look pretty" and want there characters to appear a certain way?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding this but why wouldn't you want your character to have the best gear available to them and use that? Granted that I really don't want to look like a giant red tomato on my gladiator (cobalt red stuff) but it's the best gear so I'm going to use it.

If using Optimal gear, on the wrong class or level makes the stats worse than anything you could wear, then what's the point of using it?

Not trying to argue, just want some clarification... maybe I'm not understanding the discussion.

[Tsuga]

I'll just leave this here.

Yoshida: The biggest reason that we decided to go through with this big change to the items and have all of these older items become dated items and add a set of new items, was to accompany the major changes that we made to the battle system. We have all of these changes to the battle system and the items that existed really didn’t fit with the changes that we had made and they were breaking the balance, whether it be the parameters or the restrictions on the items and whether they could be equipped by these classes or these classes. If we were to have kept these original items with this new battle system, it would have created a lot of confusion not just with new players but also with players that have been playing the game for a long time. So to remove that confusion and better keep the balance with the new battle system, we thought the best way to do this was by creating the new items.

One of the biggest reasons for not being able to put Materia onto these dated items is that the minute you’re able to put Materia onto them, it increases that confusion we wanted to avoid because the item will remain with its stats and parameters that don’t match up to the new battle system. So by not being able to attach Materia, it becomes a way of phasing out those items. We’ll also be removing the materials that create those items out of the game gradually as well as removing the recipes that depend on those items. Our aim is to have them replaced by a new set of items. But the thing is, we understand that a lot of players may have been using an item for many months up until now and they really like it. You’re not able to put Materia on it, but you are able to turn it into Materia. So that item that you’ve used, you turn that into Materia and put that on your new item. So in a sense that old item you used is now a part of your new item and that’s what we’re aiming for.

Source:
http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/2011/10...ere/#more-9022

[Alkoun]

If using Optimal gear, on the wrong class or level makes the stats worse than anything you could wear, then what's the point of using it?

Not trying to argue, just want some clarification... maybe I'm not understanding the discussion.

This is what I'm trying to understand too. I get the point that having the choice to do it is desired, but why would you want to? Beyond RP, beyond odd class-switching for quick synths or whatever...

[AamesxDavid]

If using Optimal gear, on the wrong class or level makes the stats worse than anything you could wear, then what's the point of using it?

Sorry for answering a question with a question, but what does it matter? If there isn't a reason for people to do it, then they won't. Either way, it doesn't affect you whether they do or not. That's my point. I don't care what hair color you choose because it doesn't affect gameplay. You shouldn't care why people wear what they want to wear if it doesn't affect gameplay. Which brings me to this:

Yoshida: ...We have all of these changes to the battle system and the items that existed really didn’t fit with the changes that we had made and they were breaking the balance, whether it be the parameters or the restrictions on the items and whether they could be equipped by these classes or these classes.

If having certain classes equipping gear meant for other classes is breaking the balance, then don't balance for it. Remove all the stats for all I care - it's not the issue. No one should be complaining that their GLA gear doesn't do anything for them stat-wise while they're on THM.

If we were to have kept these original items with this new battle system, it would have created a lot of confusion not just with new players but also with players that have been playing the game for a long time.

Two things contribute to this confusion: the fact that it was a new system and the fact that it wasn't obvious what anything meant - particularly the difference between "favors" and "suits". It doesn't mean the system can't be adjusted to make more sense while not being restrictive.

For example, let's toss out "favors", and just go with "suits". You get the benefits of gear when it "suits" your class; you don't when it doesn't. For every level the gear is above you, the stats are lowered by some percentage - let's say 20, that way 5 levels above you, it's completely useless, regardless of what class you are.

I think there's probably an even more elegant and balanced solution, but I think this works as a simple example.

This is what I'm trying to understand too. I get the point that having the choice to do it is desired, but why would you want to? Beyond RP, beyond odd class-switching for quick synths or whatever...

Not to be a jerk, but just how far beyond those do we need to go? Again, if it doesn't affect gameplay, what justifications do you require for thinking it's a good idea to let people do what they want to do?

[RemVye]

Sorry for answering a question with a question, but what does it matter? If there isn't a reason for people to do it, then they won't. Either way, it doesn't affect you whether they do or not. That's my point. I don't care what hair color you choose because it doesn't affect gameplay. You shouldn't care why people wear what they want to wear if it doesn't affect gameplay. Which brings me to this:



If having certain classes equipping gear meant for other classes is breaking the balance, then don't balance for it. Remove all the stats for all I care - it's not the issue. No one should be complaining that their GLA gear doesn't do anything for them stat-wise while they're on THM.



Two things contribute to this confusion: the fact that it was a new system and the fact that it wasn't obvious what anything meant - particularly the difference between "favors" and "suits". It doesn't mean the system can't be adjusted to make more sense while not being restrictive.

For example, let's toss out "favors", and just go with "suits". You get the benefits of gear when it "suits" your class; you don't when it doesn't. For every level the gear is above you, the stats are lowered by some percentage - let's say 20, that way 5 levels above you, it's completely useless, regardless of what class you are.

I think there's probably an even more elegant and balanced solution, but I think this works as a simple example.



Not to be a jerk, but just how far beyond those do we need to go? Again, if it doesn't affect gameplay, what justifications do you require for thinking it's a good idea to let people do what they want to do?

My brain is getting foggy, I think I see what you're saying.

Though I think it would affect gameplay at some point. If there were no restrictions, I know some people would just wear Gladiator gear on all classes, even if it gave no benefit at all. Just to have the look of the armor or what have you.

If they took away all restrictions then I would have to start filtering my parties to make sure people have "the right gear". This is at least cut down somewhat with the current system. You can still wear things below your rank, and trust me a lot of people do that (Partying with level 42 gladiator the other day wearing all level 25 gear. LOL needless to say, we got another tanker).

I'm all for freedom of choice, but I think destroying the balance of gear would further fuel people to say "I don't get it, when I wear this gear with a sword its great, but if I pick up a piece of wood (wand) I get no benefits at all?".

I guess what I'm trying to say is that they had to draw the line somewhere, and the required system seems to be the norm for MMO's. It works, it's easier to balance. You only lose the ability to make your character look a certain way.

I'm just trying to understand the argument... is that right, you just want to look a certain way? lol... still confused a bit

[Tsuga]

If having certain classes equipping gear meant for other classes is breaking the balance, then don't balance for it. Remove all the stats for all I care - it's not the issue. No one should be complaining that their GLA gear doesn't do anything for them stat-wise while they're on THM.



For example, let's toss out "favors", and just go with "suits". You get the benefits of gear when it "suits" your class; you don't when it doesn't. For every level the gear is above you, the stats are lowered by some percentage - let's say 20, that way 5 levels above you, it's completely useless, regardless of what class you are.

I think there's probably an even more elegant and balanced solution, but I think this works as a simple example.

The bottom line is that restricting gear to class and level was the simplest solution to implement, the most widely understood solution among people who play games in this genre (new or old), the optimal solution for future content and class balance, and a solution that fosters class goals and milestones (example, "I'm rank 30 gld, so now I can wear that super awesome rank 30 gld armor from that instance that I ran!").

Unfortunately that sacrificed flexibility, and "immersion" (as some people like to fall on the argument that it's "unrealistic"), in regards to a lot of gear (there will still be gear that is equip-able by everyone). But just like with the action bar, and the hate meter, this is something that most everyone will forget about in two months.

[AamesxDavid]

Though I think it would affect gameplay at some point. If there were no restrictions, I know some people would just wear Gladiator gear on all classes, even if it gave no benefit at all. Just to have the look of the armor or what have you.

Sure, it's possible that some people would, though I think it would be a pretty small minority.

If they took away all restrictions then I would have to start filtering my parties to make sure people have "the right gear".

This is the "I don't want to see dumb people" argument, and while I hear that concern (when it comes to parties), restrictions just hide the fact that they don't understand the needs of their class. That is, any GLA who would wear mage gear in a party is probably not going to benefit your party, even if you dress them up like a GLA. And as you say:

You can still wear things below your rank, and trust me a lot of people do that

It's possible that people do this because they can't afford/find newer gear, but to your more pertinent point about wearing gear of other classes, you can do this with the old gear. So how often have you seen a GLA in THM gear? When people are primarily concerned with aesthetics, they're usually not partying. If they are, do what you do with the people who wear level 25 gear as a level 42.

I'm all for freedom of choice, but I think destroying the balance of gear would further fuel people to say "I don't get it, when I wear this gear with a sword its great, but if I pick up a piece of wood (wand) I get no benefits at all?".

I can't prove wrong your speculation, of course, but I disagree. I think if someone sees that a piece of gear "suits" only GLA, and they get no benefit from it as a THM, it will be rather clear.

I'm just trying to understand the argument... is that right, you just want to look a certain way? lol... still confused a bit

If it's easier for you to have a real reason, then fine, go with that. But once again, my real argument is that it simply doesn't matter why you'd do it. There's no gameplay reason for a level 50 to equip level 1 gear, but they are free to do it.

[RemVye]

Sure, it's possible that some people would, though I think it would be a pretty small minority.



This is the "I don't want to see dumb people" argument, and while I hear that concern (when it comes to parties), restrictions just hide the fact that they don't understand the needs of their class. That is, any GLA who would wear mage gear in a party is probably not going to benefit your party, even if you dress them up like a GLA. And as you say:



It's possible that people do this because they can't afford/find newer gear, but to your more pertinent point about wearing gear of other classes, you can do this with the old gear. So how often have you seen a GLA in THM gear? When people are primarily concerned with aesthetics, they're usually not partying. If they are, do what you do with the people who wear level 25 gear as a level 42.



I can't prove wrong your speculation, of course, but I disagree. I think if someone sees that a piece of gear "suits" only GLA, and they get no benefit from it as a THM, it will be rather clear.



If it's easier for you to have a real reason, then fine, go with that. But once again, my real argument is that it simply doesn't matter why you'd do it. There's no gameplay reason for a level 50 to equip level 1 gear, but they are free to do it.

Yeah I hear you... I guess as long as it doesn't affect me it shouldn't matter. If they made it so all gear gave zero stats, including defense and bonus stats, then I would be fine with that. But I still think that will just open the can of worms for people to argue for the items to have stats even if it doesn't favor their class.

And probably mostly a balance thing as well. It might be too strong to have every great piece of +attack or +str gear on the same class (just an example). Zero'ing out the stats would prevent this, but I still think I prefer having required geared.

I understand your argument and respect your position. Thanks for explaining.

[Roll]

Honestly.

It's just getting annoying now. Why do I have to be stripped to the bones every single time I want to craft something on a different class? Why can't my gear just scale down accordingly? If you ask me, it was better before patch 1.19.

As long as the UI shows me what stats I'm losing out on (and now it does), that is suggestive enough for me to want to wear something else, but also not imposing enough that I HAVE to wear something else. The optimal rank was flexible. This new system is just flat-out punishing. It's more punishing than fatigue.

Can I have fatigue back? I'd rather have fatigue back than this.

And the mannequin system isn't a solution because A) It's 1.5 years away and B) just give us optimal and favoured back instead.

I couldn't even wear a R18 dagger as a R15 gladiator merely because i wasn't high enough for it. I mean really... really... It was the lowest one available in wards so I had to buy a dated one which was a few ranks higher because i could actually WEAR that one.

So in conclusion: bring back optimal/favoured system.

• It was a progressive step for an MMO where you are constantly changing classes.
• It was also much better than restrictions because it allowed you some flexibility to play the way you wanted and also look the way you wanted
• Restrictions are punishing
• Restrictions make you buy stupid stuff from the wards

Just leave restrictive gear for AF stuff or something. There's no reason to get all crazy and heavy-handed about restrictions just because the polls suggested players wanted some restrictive gear. It's really not balanced at the moment.

I can't tell weather your serious or a troll considering:
1. You want fatigue back
2. Your character name and lvl are kind of suspicious
3. This is about the lamest thing to complain about for the game

There are still truck loads of gear you can equip without restrictions... You make it sound like it's torturous to switch classes and put on some clothes. I don't mean to be mean or anything but this is about the most whiniest, stupidest complaint I've ever seen.