Issue with double standards with Se and defining between dps and support.

[Judge_Xero]

I think some people miss the point on why support get a penalty for using their support skills.
As I've shown earlier in the thread, under reasonable usage there is a minimal 2% damage loss. The reason for the penalty is to simply deter over usage of Ballad/Paeon (Promote).

For progression you don't stack classes simply for LB and class synergy so 90% of people wouldn't run 4xBLM etc. Over geared PF content it doesn't matter what you take as Skill>Job composition and noone complains when you are winning.

All things being equal there wont be much difference between a 4 Brd/MCH and 4 BLM/SMN in PF.

---------------------------------------

TBH it really doesn't matter since SE knows where BRD sits. MCH is getting a small buff to compete with BRD as they are a little bit behind. But people who obviously don't understand what their class is capable of asking for buffs seems a bit strange IMO.

3.2 BRD/MCH Buff -> Mentor System?

Edit: hate to sound harsh, but this far into 3.0 if you can't understand how WD doesn't mean anything in relation to BRD/MCH (relative to the higher WD of Melee Classes) Damage and how WM/GB shifts AOE/Multi Target efficiency without greatly altering single target damage thus is a huge improvement over 2.0, then maybe spend more time getting gud, and less time on the forums?

[Kelevra]

i agree with lilith , BRD (MCH) are doing lower dmg because the have "support" (something i still dont agree , since all the dps but BLM have some kind of support , +10% dmg , crit buff , battle rez, e4e, virus .... ) , support that in 2.0 was "OK" , but in 3.0 is rarely used....outside FOE if u are bard , and -5% physical dmg if u are MCH....

come 3.0 BRD gained CASTING TIMES while staying the same dps wise

2.0 brd did 80% (~) of the melee dps while being the most mobile job , 3.0 we still do the same % dmg but we have casting times! (WM boost dmg by 30%!!!!) yet we are in the same spot as 2.0 , but with casting times.... sometimes i wonder wth , all the bards were tricked into thinking that WM was the answer to keep up with at least mages dps....it has a DPS % boost and casting times so it makes sense, then u realize that ...nope... all that % dmg and casting times was a hidden nerf to mobility w/o gaining any dmg at all....

oh and dont forget animations , look how awesome DRG, SMN ....feel now , now lock back at BRD...now lock back at SMN , now back at BRD.... , we even share animation with DRK (their aoe drain has the same animation as sidewinder) ...feels like SE didnt even care ...and rushed the brd in 3.0 who needs unique animations for that loljob?... + Wardens Paeon /yawn ...3.0 has been " a slap in the face" hahaha

p.d WEAPON DAMAGE BUFF please ? while i love that 205 and 210 weapons have the same WD ...is a bit disheartening.

The play style of Minuet isn't the problem, imo. The double standard is and I'd, personally, rather that SE didn't nerf other jobs....but bring Bard up to an even level through adjustments and such.

[Sleigh]

I think some people miss the point on why support get a penalty for using their support skills.
As I've shown earlier in the thread, under reasonable usage there is a minimal 2% damage loss. The reason for the penalty is to simply deter over usage of Ballad/Paeon (Promote).

For progression you don't stack classes simply for LB and class synergy so 90% of people wouldn't run 4xBLM etc. Over geared PF content it doesn't matter what you take as Skill>Job composition and noone complains when you are winning.

All things being equal there wont be much difference between a 4 Brd/MCH and 4 BLM/SMN in PF.

---------------------------------------

TBH it really doesn't matter since SE knows where BRD sits. MCH is getting a small buff to compete with BRD as they are a little bit behind. But people who obviously don't understand what their class is capable of asking for buffs seems a bit strange IMO.

3.2 BRD/MCH Buff -> Mentor System?

Edit: hate to sound harsh, but this far into 3.0 if you can't understand how WD doesn't mean anything in relation to BRD/MCH (relative to the higher WD of Melee Classes) Damage and how WM/GB shifts AOE/Multi Target efficiency without greatly altering single target damage thus is a huge improvement over 2.0, then maybe spend more time getting gud, and less time on the forums?

This is true but it's even simpler than this. People are acting as if Hypercharge/Foe's don't exist, and BRD/MCH should be fighting for #1 dummy DPS while providing Foe's/Hypercharge, providing the option of TP/MP, awesome multi-DoTs, AoE, ramp-up due to near death enemies (have people seen what BRD can do when an enemy is sub-20% for longer than a minute, like T13 and A3S? BRD gets melee level legitimately during that time in terms of ST sustain), and being ranged on top of this.

Yeah let's just make them do equal DPS as the other guys! While we're at it let's just do DRG MCH MCH MCH as the optimal comp, sounds good?

You don't give a class with all these advantages the exact DPS as MNK/BLM, people. They are out-contributing most DPS in raid DPS as it currently is, including said BLM/MNKs, in skilled hands, regardless of TP/MP regeneration.

[Lilith_Merquise]

^^ Sorry but I disagree, any class of EQUAL skill to the BRD will always out DPS the BRD, that's a simple fact. Many BRD's and MCH's have had to get good and nail their rotations perfectly to keep up top DPS, where as if you're a melee it's not as stressing and you botch it, sure you might lose out a bit but you're not going to notice a significant drop. MCH especially requires so much perfect rotation of multiple abilities that to screw up even a little is a large DPS contribution down. Now why is a class that is required to do so much and coordinate as much as MCH, struggling to even do what is considered "Mediocre Damage"? I don't see how that is fair.


Also, yes "No one complains when you're winning" but when you can't even complete the PF or get people that nag you into a class that isn't you're well geared main, etc. because it is heavily stacked MCH/BRD is the concern. I've joined parties where it's 2 BLM's 1SMN and me on MCH. Nobody whined about it, we did well and that was the end of it. But i've joined 2 MCH/BRD in a party and instantly the party is scrutinizing every detail and very slip up in DPS is instantly the BRD/MCH fault for not "Carrying the DPS." When it's a class that is artificially nerfed NOT to, how can you be expected to do so? That is the problem. Now I'm not saying that I want it to out DPS the other classes, if you'll notice this is discussing the standpoint of the classes embracing "Support" functionality. What I want is for SE to stop pretending that a support is a resource vending machine, an actually give it some teeth to compensate for the DPS lost. Sure Foe and Hypercharge can be great tools, Foe's even more so because it's duration is based on your MP, the CD isn't 120s for a measly 10s and half it's potency.... But there is no way to measure what % of that DPS is your contribution for your loss in DPS... What if the MNK is garbage, your DRG isn't even using his Blood of the Dragoon.... You're artificially losing DPS, in hopes that the garbage DPS in your party are actually worth something.... How is that even remotely fair?

How many NIN's do you hear saying to someone, who says their DPS numbers are garbage, "Oh well all the damage during Triple attack, 10% of it is mine, so please add that to my numbers.." NO! Are you out your mind!? haha seriously!? Nobody accounts for that as "Your DPS" because it isn't, sure it helps and is a great contribution to the party, but how much does Trick Attack nerf Ninjas? I mean it's a support ability right? Or what about DRG's Disembowel, or WAR's Storm's Eye... Are we all of a sudden saying that the damage types that get benefits from these, DPS, now belongs to the class putting up the weakness with this logic? NO. And these classes don't even have to artificially lose DPS for being awesome (WAIT WUT!? These classes actually gain DPS from their own Debuff, that doesn't go on cool down!?... Absurd!) and helping other classes over all DPS.... SO again I ask, why is it that BRD and MCH are so special that they deserve lower DPS?

Again, give BRD/MCH something that actively helps enfeeble a mob that isn't an absolutely laughable joke or gets resisted instantly by a boss or resisted after 2-3 uses; Blind, Paralyze, Slow, Stacking Weaknesss, W/E! I'm not asking for more DPS, I'm asking for more usefulness that can benefit any party, and not just when "masta wants his glass refilled, he sure is parched." Sure the default answer is "To Get Good" cool, so basically fight back while someone else is holding you down, that's legit.

[Sleigh]

How many NIN's do you hear saying to someone, who says their DPS numbers are garbage, "Oh well all the damage during Triple attack, 10% of it is mine, so please add that to my numbers.." NO! Are you out your mind!? haha seriously!? Nobody accounts for that as "Your DPS" because it isn't, sure it helps and is a great contribution to the party, but how much does Trick Attack nerf Ninjas? I mean it's a support ability right? Or what about DRG's Disembowel, or WAR's Storm's Eye... Are we all of a sudden saying that the damage types that get benefits from these, DPS, now belongs to the class putting up the weakness with this logic? NO.

Actually, attributing numbers to a class to find out how much they're worth is exactly how it works and anyone who can't see that is just being blind to how raid contribution works. More specifically, find out how much they contribute by existing. DPS "belonging" to someone doesn't even matter if you don't agree with where damage belongs to; the fact is, you do more party DPS because you have a BRD or MCH in your party, personal DPS be damned, and you have to take that into account in ranged strength, much like how DRG is "worth" much less if you don't have a BRD/MCH in the group for it to not contribute as much.

In your example, if you were for instance farming with said NIN who's doing garbage, and you had a rep who's ready to come in, you can easily say "Well our group DPS is poopy 6,000 DPS with this terrible NIN, he's only doing 800 DPS; I've got this crappy SMN friend who will come in and do 850 instead if we want, but looking at the NIN's contribution of his 800 + Trick Attack + Shadewalker he's worth about 900-950. Then again, I have this DRG who can come in and do 850 but he'll buff all our ranged by 7-9% with Disembowel and add about 2% to the group with Litany ... he'd be worth an easy 1000++, let's go with him."

Also, PF is deadly easy in this game. What are you PFing that a 2 ranged comp is holding you back on, A3S? For reference, when my group would sell Thordan, we took BRD + MCH a few times in a 7 man and did just fine, miles before any form of enrage would happen in any phase of the fight (clearing immediately after the ice + ground AoE), it's just L2P, absolutely nothing to do with balance. Any 8 man group in any content Thordan or easier should be able to run any comp they desire, the only thing holding people back is skill.

The game should not be balanced around PF success with random comps. PF groups have the same opportunity to create a comp that's optimal just like real raid groups; if they create a group that gets filled with BRD BRD BRD MNK, that's the party's prerogative. The issue would be if comps are literally unable to clear old/easy fights without a specific comp, and I am positive nothing below Savage raiding requires any specific comp to work.

[Judge_Xero]

I don't see where BRD/MCH is any more difficult or penalized harder than other jobs. They both have a simple priority system of self buffs and other than that it's "what is the most damaging skill can I use now"

Dropping BoD, Enochian, DreadWyrm, Greased, Huton on top of losing your position in a tight rotation is pretty rough.

Yet BRD/MCH pushing every opportunity to inch out their DPS through strict optimisations are very close to melee/mages doing the same with strict rotations.

[Shurrikhan]

I think OP is referring to a DF run, rather than a static group. This is reminiscent of how SCHs were asking for SS2, not for static groups but more for DF groups when you don't have a choice of the other players you're paired with.

I wouldn't mind seeing the ability to queue as multiple jobs, even if only within a single role, to lessen that kind of problem. 1) Bard, 2) (if already another, better geared/higher preference/single-class-queued Bard) Dragoon, 3) Monk, etc.

[AniCelestine]

I haven't been bothered to read all these complaining threads about this matter. But thought I'd finally bring up something.

Why don't you make some new suggestions rather than just ask for something that has been asked so many times and yet it hasn't happened..

Maybe if people took a small amount of their time complaining to rather think of a way they'd do it personally and then they all compiled those ideas in one new thread then maybe some people at SE might read through those ideas and come up with something, if they even intend to change anything.


Like I've been toying around with an idea of changing brd and mch base class to dps (so outright buff them to smn lvl of dps) and then getting rid of all the skills that are considered supportive. Then smack them with a support stance that works like AST's stances, can't take it off/change it (And in this case can't activate it) when in combat. So if you know that you need all the support abilities, go in the support stance pre-combat to have access to those, if you know you won't need them, don't use that stance. If that PF/ DF you just joined has 2-3 brds/mchs communicate which of you should go support stance if it's needed.

Being in the forementioned support stance means that you're dealing the same dps as you'd be dealing currently. By not being in thay stance you'd be just a little higher than smn ST dps, since you have decent mobility, you're ranged, and decent aoe. (Smn bests you in aoe obvs thus you're above smn in ST)

How would that sound like? Not sure if anyone had already come up with such a concept but since everywhere is so much complaining that I can't just bare to read through all these kinds of threads so no idea if somewhere there hidden someone has posted similar concept.

Imo bard is fine atm, mch is a little too complex to achieve the similar to brd dps, wouldn't personally change anything bout these "supportlol" classes other than mch's complexity down a little. But since everyone is always complaining I thought I'd give you an idea how to approach this 'issue' with something else than "plz buffs"

[Kelevra]

snip

Yeah, I threw some ideas out there back on page 7 (even once before in another thread as well). But like you said...most likely buried/overlooked due to such back n forth in this thread.

[Connor]

I won't lie and say I've read this thread in it's entirety, but thought I'd weigh in lol.
I disagree that Bard damage or the WD difference need increased, it's fine as it is at the moment. Machinist could definitely use a buff though, it has a very difficult rotation (for me at least lol) yet doesn't put out much more damage than Bard, despite Bard being quite a bit easier (in my opinion anyway).