Issue with double standards with Se and defining between dps and support.

[Lilith_Merquise]

^^ Sorry but I disagree, any class of EQUAL skill to the BRD will always out DPS the BRD, that's a simple fact. Many BRD's and MCH's have had to get good and nail their rotations perfectly to keep up top DPS, where as if you're a melee it's not as stressing and you botch it, sure you might lose out a bit but you're not going to notice a significant drop. MCH especially requires so much perfect rotation of multiple abilities that to screw up even a little is a large DPS contribution down. Now why is a class that is required to do so much and coordinate as much as MCH, struggling to even do what is considered "Mediocre Damage"? I don't see how that is fair.


Also, yes "No one complains when you're winning" but when you can't even complete the PF or get people that nag you into a class that isn't you're well geared main, etc. because it is heavily stacked MCH/BRD is the concern. I've joined parties where it's 2 BLM's 1SMN and me on MCH. Nobody whined about it, we did well and that was the end of it. But i've joined 2 MCH/BRD in a party and instantly the party is scrutinizing every detail and very slip up in DPS is instantly the BRD/MCH fault for not "Carrying the DPS." When it's a class that is artificially nerfed NOT to, how can you be expected to do so? That is the problem. Now I'm not saying that I want it to out DPS the other classes, if you'll notice this is discussing the standpoint of the classes embracing "Support" functionality. What I want is for SE to stop pretending that a support is a resource vending machine, an actually give it some teeth to compensate for the DPS lost. Sure Foe and Hypercharge can be great tools, Foe's even more so because it's duration is based on your MP, the CD isn't 120s for a measly 10s and half it's potency.... But there is no way to measure what % of that DPS is your contribution for your loss in DPS... What if the MNK is garbage, your DRG isn't even using his Blood of the Dragoon.... You're artificially losing DPS, in hopes that the garbage DPS in your party are actually worth something.... How is that even remotely fair?

How many NIN's do you hear saying to someone, who says their DPS numbers are garbage, "Oh well all the damage during Triple attack, 10% of it is mine, so please add that to my numbers.." NO! Are you out your mind!? haha seriously!? Nobody accounts for that as "Your DPS" because it isn't, sure it helps and is a great contribution to the party, but how much does Trick Attack nerf Ninjas? I mean it's a support ability right? Or what about DRG's Disembowel, or WAR's Storm's Eye... Are we all of a sudden saying that the damage types that get benefits from these, DPS, now belongs to the class putting up the weakness with this logic? NO. And these classes don't even have to artificially lose DPS for being awesome (WAIT WUT!? These classes actually gain DPS from their own Debuff, that doesn't go on cool down!?... Absurd!) and helping other classes over all DPS.... SO again I ask, why is it that BRD and MCH are so special that they deserve lower DPS?

Again, give BRD/MCH something that actively helps enfeeble a mob that isn't an absolutely laughable joke or gets resisted instantly by a boss or resisted after 2-3 uses; Blind, Paralyze, Slow, Stacking Weaknesss, W/E! I'm not asking for more DPS, I'm asking for more usefulness that can benefit any party, and not just when "masta wants his glass refilled, he sure is parched." Sure the default answer is "To Get Good" cool, so basically fight back while someone else is holding you down, that's legit.

[Sleigh]

How many NIN's do you hear saying to someone, who says their DPS numbers are garbage, "Oh well all the damage during Triple attack, 10% of it is mine, so please add that to my numbers.." NO! Are you out your mind!? haha seriously!? Nobody accounts for that as "Your DPS" because it isn't, sure it helps and is a great contribution to the party, but how much does Trick Attack nerf Ninjas? I mean it's a support ability right? Or what about DRG's Disembowel, or WAR's Storm's Eye... Are we all of a sudden saying that the damage types that get benefits from these, DPS, now belongs to the class putting up the weakness with this logic? NO.

Actually, attributing numbers to a class to find out how much they're worth is exactly how it works and anyone who can't see that is just being blind to how raid contribution works. More specifically, find out how much they contribute by existing. DPS "belonging" to someone doesn't even matter if you don't agree with where damage belongs to; the fact is, you do more party DPS because you have a BRD or MCH in your party, personal DPS be damned, and you have to take that into account in ranged strength, much like how DRG is "worth" much less if you don't have a BRD/MCH in the group for it to not contribute as much.

In your example, if you were for instance farming with said NIN who's doing garbage, and you had a rep who's ready to come in, you can easily say "Well our group DPS is poopy 6,000 DPS with this terrible NIN, he's only doing 800 DPS; I've got this crappy SMN friend who will come in and do 850 instead if we want, but looking at the NIN's contribution of his 800 + Trick Attack + Shadewalker he's worth about 900-950. Then again, I have this DRG who can come in and do 850 but he'll buff all our ranged by 7-9% with Disembowel and add about 2% to the group with Litany ... he'd be worth an easy 1000++, let's go with him."

Also, PF is deadly easy in this game. What are you PFing that a 2 ranged comp is holding you back on, A3S? For reference, when my group would sell Thordan, we took BRD + MCH a few times in a 7 man and did just fine, miles before any form of enrage would happen in any phase of the fight (clearing immediately after the ice + ground AoE), it's just L2P, absolutely nothing to do with balance. Any 8 man group in any content Thordan or easier should be able to run any comp they desire, the only thing holding people back is skill.

The game should not be balanced around PF success with random comps. PF groups have the same opportunity to create a comp that's optimal just like real raid groups; if they create a group that gets filled with BRD BRD BRD MNK, that's the party's prerogative. The issue would be if comps are literally unable to clear old/easy fights without a specific comp, and I am positive nothing below Savage raiding requires any specific comp to work.