Issue with double standards with Se and defining between dps and support.

[Judge_Xero]

because of how duty finder works, this party comp is generally never going to happen.

But it could and it's not fair, that in that particular circumstance BRD/MCH would be at a disadvantage. Completely game-breaking balance. (end sarcasm)

(MCH kind of does; I vote Hypercharge works on all damage types)

You are pretty much dead on with that. By looking at a lot of battle logs comparing BRD/MCH in the cases where BRD has a higher advantage it would most definitely be offset by the Bishop Turret offering an increase to Melee damage as well, as well with the Rook Turret being able to transfer the debuff to multiple separate mobs having a "General" debuff through hypercharge would definitely be the best approach to balance.

Drg or no Drg, if a Bard doesn't have to use there songs that incur the penalties, they still have to operate with the gap in weapon dmg.

Where does this keep coming from? That because BRD/MCH has lower weapon damage therefore they have lower damage?

Do Melee have lower damage than magic users because Magic Damage is higher than Physical Damage? It's just a method to control damage scaling with gear and based on the job play style. If BRD/MCH Physical Damage matched Melee Physical Damage then they would put out so much more damage than Melee could and would almost match SMN in AOE potential.

[Galibier]

Okay on one point regarding the OP. That's any group finder system for ya and the DF instances are tuned to acknowledge this reality, so while not an ideal group the content is still more than doable.

That said since they have said no to dedicated support classes there really is no other option. The marginally lower dps is a consequence of the extensive utility the particular jobs bring. If you want the dps of a pure dps, you roll dps. It's not like its a secret that Hard and Machinist do less dps most of the time.

As for conflicts...well if you are really concerned about that lots of jobs have conflicts with buffs/debuffs, within and across other jobs if you are really interested in min/maxing.

[Kelevra]

Where does this keep coming from? That because BRD/MCH has lower weapon damage therefore they have lower damage?

Do Melee have lower damage than magic users because Magic Damage is higher than Physical Damage? It's just a method to control damage scaling with gear and based on the job play style. If BRD/MCH Physical Damage matched Melee Physical Damage then they would put out so much more damage than Melee could and would almost match SMN in AOE potential.

I say that because with the strongest weapons currently available to us (i205 Thordan/ i210 relic/ i210 Eso weapon/ i210 Gordian), the gap in weapon dmg, considering just physical dmg dealers, widens again. Bard doesn't get an increase in WD going from the i205 Thordan Bow to any of the i210 weapons. The melee do get an increase tho....going from their i205 to any i210 weapon. Even if it's a small increase, it's still a jump in dmg for them.

But w/e. We've been back n forth on this for the last few pages. I'm just gonna agree to disagree with you. You think Bard doesn't need any fine tuning/improvements. I strongly feel they do and stand by that. Most jobs have gone through their fair share of fine tuning and such since ARR launched. And Bard is overdue for the same treatment.

[whiskeybravo]

But w/e. We've been back n forth on this for the last few pages. I'm just gonna agree to disagree with you. You think Bard doesn't need any fine tuning/improvements. I strongly feel they do and stand by that. Most jobs have gone through their fair share of fine tuning and such since ARR launched. And Bard is overdue for the same treatment.

Using the current balance as a starting point, for increased damage I'd say you need submit to a decrease in utility. Even DRG which has great dps is behind MNK, monk's utility is marginal at best, you bring them for damage only. This is the way the game is balanced, we don't get awesome utility and awesome dps in the same jobs.

You also seem to be disregarding the fact that nearly every raid group wants a bard or machinist for their utility not because of their dps. A lot of groups will even put up with less than average dps out of a bard/machinist because they want them there for utility.

[Judge_Xero]

snip.

Yeah, those i205 weapons are a bit of a strange beast for BRD/MCN that gear level must have fallen on some rounding point for what SE dictates for a stat increase. i205 was such a strange gear point to begin with considering previous gear.

I was curious where your feeling that BRD needs improvements comes from so I hope you don't mind that I looked into your FFLogs data. I can understand where you are coming from with the damage numbers you are experiencing, but on average it only leaves you in the 30th Percentile (75th Percentile is ~20% higher, with the best 95th Percentile being 40% higher). There is a lot more that BRD can bring to the table than you are getting to experience.

The Melee Rankings are in the Range of 30th Percentile -> 75th Percentile (+15%) -> 95th Percentile (+15%)

[Kelevra]

Using the current balance as a starting point, for increased damage I'd say you need submit to a decrease in utility. Even DRG which has great dps is behind MNK, monk's utility is marginal at best, you bring them for damage only. This is the way the game is balanced, we don't get awesome utility and awesome dps in the same jobs.

You also seem to be disregarding the fact that nearly every raid group wants a bard or machinist for their utility not because of their dps. A lot of groups will even put up with less than average dps out of a bard/machinist because they want them there for utility.

1. That would be something I'd be open to.

2. I wouldn't downplay Dragon Kick. An Int debuff is something that nearly every raid group desires as well.

3. Drg has awesome dps and Battle Litany. Battle Litany is an awesome utility imo.

[Jim_Berry]

I was just asking my FC this morning about how is it possible that my iLv208 NIN is doing less damage than my iLv204 BRD. I was on a Dummy to kill time while waiting on DF to pop, and I noticed that on regular attacks and combos (no major buffs excluding WM on BRD and Wasp on NIN), my BRD was constantly hitting a minimum of 1k per hit while NIN was around 980 minimum. A little more info as follows:

BRD:
Bow of the Heavens
817 Crit
436 Determination
1045 Attack Power

NIN:
Antiquated Yukimitsu
684 Crit
593 Determination
1095 Attack Power

Basically, as BRD and only using WM (no Barrage, Blood for Blood, etc), each attack (Windbite, Bloodletter, blah, blah, blah) were all hitting a minimum of 1k damage per hit. As NIN and only using Wasp (no Blood for Blood, Trick Attack, etc) each attack (Aeolian Edge combos and other attacks) were all hitting a minimum of 980, sometimes dipping as low as 850 on a hit.

I don't understand it.

[Sidra]

4 man DF content only needs 1 healer and 1 tank. The other 2 slots could be occupied by anything: dps, tanks and healers and the content can be cleared efficiently. The fact it allows 2 dps helps greatly with queues for dps, as there are a lot of them. Increasing queue times for unnecessary dps optimization in content that doesn't come close to requiring it would make no sense.

[DarkerOrange]

4 man DF content only needs 1 healer and 1 tank. The other 2 slots could be occupied by anything: dps, tanks and healers and the content can be cleared efficiently. The fact it allows 2 dps helps greatly with queues for dps, as there are a lot of them. Increasing queue times for unnecessary dps optimization in content that doesn't come close to requiring it would make no sense.

^This.

Dungeons/VA etc can be cleared by dps who only press 1 button over and over, so why waste time messing with something that works fine as is.

[whiskeybravo]

1. That would be something I'd be open to.

2. I wouldn't downplay Dragon Kick. An Int debuff is something that nearly every raid group desires as well.

3. Drg has awesome dps and Battle Litany. Battle Litany is an awesome utility imo.

Wasn't really trying to downplay DK, but DRK has the same Int down. The only additional thing is traited Mantra which is nice, but neither is a raid dps increase like disembowel or battle litany. Yea, litany is great, and drg has slightly less personal dps (than monk) because of it.

I think they should make a more damage focused brd/mch job instead of reworking brd/mch to do more dps at the cost of their current utility.

Dungeons/VA etc can be cleared by dps who only press 1 button over and over, so why waste time messing with something that works fine as is.

Not if EVERY dps was only pushing one button xD