Issue with double standards with Se and defining between dps and support.

[Kaze3434]

...random party comp of:

Paladin, Paladin, Astrologian, Astrologian, Bard, Bard, Bard, Bard (and they all rotate Foe's as you suggest)


yeah....no thank you

because of how duty finder works, this party comp is generally never going to happen.

[Judge_Xero]

because of how duty finder works, this party comp is generally never going to happen.

But it could and it's not fair, that in that particular circumstance BRD/MCH would be at a disadvantage. Completely game-breaking balance. (end sarcasm)

(MCH kind of does; I vote Hypercharge works on all damage types)

You are pretty much dead on with that. By looking at a lot of battle logs comparing BRD/MCH in the cases where BRD has a higher advantage it would most definitely be offset by the Bishop Turret offering an increase to Melee damage as well, as well with the Rook Turret being able to transfer the debuff to multiple separate mobs having a "General" debuff through hypercharge would definitely be the best approach to balance.

Drg or no Drg, if a Bard doesn't have to use there songs that incur the penalties, they still have to operate with the gap in weapon dmg.

Where does this keep coming from? That because BRD/MCH has lower weapon damage therefore they have lower damage?

Do Melee have lower damage than magic users because Magic Damage is higher than Physical Damage? It's just a method to control damage scaling with gear and based on the job play style. If BRD/MCH Physical Damage matched Melee Physical Damage then they would put out so much more damage than Melee could and would almost match SMN in AOE potential.

[Galibier]

Okay on one point regarding the OP. That's any group finder system for ya and the DF instances are tuned to acknowledge this reality, so while not an ideal group the content is still more than doable.

That said since they have said no to dedicated support classes there really is no other option. The marginally lower dps is a consequence of the extensive utility the particular jobs bring. If you want the dps of a pure dps, you roll dps. It's not like its a secret that Hard and Machinist do less dps most of the time.

As for conflicts...well if you are really concerned about that lots of jobs have conflicts with buffs/debuffs, within and across other jobs if you are really interested in min/maxing.

[Kelevra]

Where does this keep coming from? That because BRD/MCH has lower weapon damage therefore they have lower damage?

Do Melee have lower damage than magic users because Magic Damage is higher than Physical Damage? It's just a method to control damage scaling with gear and based on the job play style. If BRD/MCH Physical Damage matched Melee Physical Damage then they would put out so much more damage than Melee could and would almost match SMN in AOE potential.

I say that because with the strongest weapons currently available to us (i205 Thordan/ i210 relic/ i210 Eso weapon/ i210 Gordian), the gap in weapon dmg, considering just physical dmg dealers, widens again. Bard doesn't get an increase in WD going from the i205 Thordan Bow to any of the i210 weapons. The melee do get an increase tho....going from their i205 to any i210 weapon. Even if it's a small increase, it's still a jump in dmg for them.

But w/e. We've been back n forth on this for the last few pages. I'm just gonna agree to disagree with you. You think Bard doesn't need any fine tuning/improvements. I strongly feel they do and stand by that. Most jobs have gone through their fair share of fine tuning and such since ARR launched. And Bard is overdue for the same treatment.

[whiskeybravo]

But w/e. We've been back n forth on this for the last few pages. I'm just gonna agree to disagree with you. You think Bard doesn't need any fine tuning/improvements. I strongly feel they do and stand by that. Most jobs have gone through their fair share of fine tuning and such since ARR launched. And Bard is overdue for the same treatment.

Using the current balance as a starting point, for increased damage I'd say you need submit to a decrease in utility. Even DRG which has great dps is behind MNK, monk's utility is marginal at best, you bring them for damage only. This is the way the game is balanced, we don't get awesome utility and awesome dps in the same jobs.

You also seem to be disregarding the fact that nearly every raid group wants a bard or machinist for their utility not because of their dps. A lot of groups will even put up with less than average dps out of a bard/machinist because they want them there for utility.

[Kelevra]

Using the current balance as a starting point, for increased damage I'd say you need submit to a decrease in utility. Even DRG which has great dps is behind MNK, monk's utility is marginal at best, you bring them for damage only. This is the way the game is balanced, we don't get awesome utility and awesome dps in the same jobs.

You also seem to be disregarding the fact that nearly every raid group wants a bard or machinist for their utility not because of their dps. A lot of groups will even put up with less than average dps out of a bard/machinist because they want them there for utility.

1. That would be something I'd be open to.

2. I wouldn't downplay Dragon Kick. An Int debuff is something that nearly every raid group desires as well.

3. Drg has awesome dps and Battle Litany. Battle Litany is an awesome utility imo.

[whiskeybravo]

1. That would be something I'd be open to.

2. I wouldn't downplay Dragon Kick. An Int debuff is something that nearly every raid group desires as well.

3. Drg has awesome dps and Battle Litany. Battle Litany is an awesome utility imo.

Wasn't really trying to downplay DK, but DRK has the same Int down. The only additional thing is traited Mantra which is nice, but neither is a raid dps increase like disembowel or battle litany. Yea, litany is great, and drg has slightly less personal dps (than monk) because of it.

I think they should make a more damage focused brd/mch job instead of reworking brd/mch to do more dps at the cost of their current utility.

Dungeons/VA etc can be cleared by dps who only press 1 button over and over, so why waste time messing with something that works fine as is.

Not if EVERY dps was only pushing one button xD

[Nyghtmarerobu]

Why does bard need a buff? Because somebody had a fail Duty finder with 4 bards? 4 prolly, not i200+ bards. Prolly not even main bards. Bards don't need a buff, neither do Machinists.

[Judge_Xero]

snip.

Yeah, those i205 weapons are a bit of a strange beast for BRD/MCN that gear level must have fallen on some rounding point for what SE dictates for a stat increase. i205 was such a strange gear point to begin with considering previous gear.

I was curious where your feeling that BRD needs improvements comes from so I hope you don't mind that I looked into your FFLogs data. I can understand where you are coming from with the damage numbers you are experiencing, but on average it only leaves you in the 30th Percentile (75th Percentile is ~20% higher, with the best 95th Percentile being 40% higher). There is a lot more that BRD can bring to the table than you are getting to experience.

The Melee Rankings are in the Range of 30th Percentile -> 75th Percentile (+15%) -> 95th Percentile (+15%)

[JackFross]

Just because content is easy doesn't mean that groups don't fail due to the party composition.

This is patently false. There is no instance in the entire game where party composition will be the sole reason for failing to kill the instance, assuming players are all item level 208-210. This extends to DF, only you just need to assume players average at item level 190+. Meeting these circumstances and hitting enrage implies much more that the PLAYERS ARE BAD than it says anything at all about the party composition.

2. I wouldn't downplay Dragon Kick.

3. Drg has awesome dps and Battle Litany. Battle Litany is an awesome utility imo.

Dragon Kick, even keeping in mind traited Mantra and the presence of Delirium on Dark Knight, does absolutely nowhere NEAR as much utility as Battle Litany and Disembowel. Regardless what you think about Bard/Machinist DPS, Disembowel is a significant boost to raid dps.

Battle Litany cannot by any stretch be compared to Foe Requiem, Hypercharge, Balance/Arrow/Spear, Mage Ballad/Army' Paeon, Promotion, or Trick Attack. All of those bring considerably better overall dps gains than Battle Litany, which is a 15% crit buff for 1/9th of the fight, at best.

I took the top 400 (if available) and averaged the dps.

This is an incredibly inaccurate way to measure DPS parity. The amount of parses make the "top 400" vary WILDLY in quality. If you want to really compare DPS parity, the site already has tools for that:

Faust: http://www.fflogs.com/statistics/7/#class=Any&boss=5001
A1S: http://www.fflogs.com/statistics/7/#boss=18&class=Any
A2S: http://www.fflogs.com/statistics/7/#...Any&dataset=95
A3S: http://www.fflogs.com/statistics/7/#boss=20&class=Any
A4S: http://www.fflogs.com/statistics/7/#boss=21&class=Any

Overall: http://www.fflogs.com/statistics/7/#class=Any

Had to take a smaller sample for A2S because too many Ninjas drive the gobwalker.
A4S is skewed lower due to the fact that the vast majority of Bards and Machinists are sent to explode to Pentacle, since it would be less of a dps loss for them than a melee due to travel time.

tl;dr: The differences are hardly important, and there is no fight in the game where tanks are beating Bards, on average.

Someone mentioned Thordan, so:
http://www.fflogs.com/statistics/4/#class=Any

Though it only takes data from the past two weeks, and most of the top Thordan players have only been selling the past two weeks or they've already gotten what they need and don't do it anymore.



I skimmed most of the thread and picked out a couple of points I felt needed to be stated. I'd also like to take this time to lay out all of the dps classes and what utility they bring to the table, and how that justifies the general ranking seen in a straightforward single-target fight like A3S:

Monk
-- Dragon Kick - 10% INT debuff (doubled by DRK in 3.x)
-- Mantra - 20% healing buff

Black Mage
-- Apocatastasis - 20% magic damage reduction on one target.

Dragoon
-- Disembowel - Buffs BRD/MCH dps, if they're present
-- Battle Litany - 15% crit buff for 20s with 180s cooldown

Ninja
-- Trick Attack - 10% damage boost for 10s with 60s cooldown
-- Goad - TP regeneration on a single target
-- Shadewalker - Transfers enmity to target
-- Smoke Screen - Quelling Strikes for a target

Summoner
-- Virus - 15% INT/MND/STR/DEX debuff on the target
-- Eye for an Eye - 20% chance of 10% damage reduction after physical damage
-- Resurrection - additional party raise

Bard
-- Mage Ballad - regen party Mana
-- Army's Paeon - regen party TP
-- Foe Requiem - 10% damage boost to Magic damage
---- Battle Voice - doubles efficacy of above songs
-- The Warden's Paean - Prevents incoming status curable status ailment

Machinist
-- Promotion - regen party Mana (Bishop) or TP (Rook)
-- Hypercharge - 5% damage increase for ~22s with 120s cooldown
---- Can also double Promotion Mana/TP regen
-- Dismantle - 5% physical mitigation - 0 damage
-- Rend Mind - 5% magical mitigation - 0 damage

The general scale of highest to lowest single-target damage is:
Monk
Black Mage
Dragoon
Ninja
Summoner
Bard
Machinist

If you look at the above utility skills, this gradient makes perfect sense. The more effective utility skills that a job has, the lower its personal dps becomes. I don't think it's very strange. And the numbers shown above show that these differences are more-or-less proportional with the disparities in utility skills.

Shrug. I think Machinist needs a bit of a boost, but I think Bard is fine. If you are unhappy with your own dps as a Bard, I recommend re-evaluating what you're doing, rather than blaming the class. I assure you, it's not the Job's fault.