Issue with double standards with Se and defining between dps and support.

[Judge_Xero]

Well, we can't really balance jobs around "ifs" and "buts" though can we?

Unfortunately you can't have every job buff it's own damage type as that would ruin party synergy as well.

SCH can DPS almost indefinitely using Aetherflow and Energy Drain. MP Cost + MP recovery is really close.

WHM can solo heal without Ballad with the occasional DPS added in for all DF encounters.

Not sure where AST stands.

In the case of a healer death or a healer having to Raise + having MP issues reduce BRD/MCH dps by another 2% for ~42 seconds of Ballad to get them to their next MP recovery CD.

Paeon + Ballad 90 seconds total time -> 4% damage reduction over a 6 minute encounter. Even at 4% DPS loss that could be the difference between a run with lucky crits or not.

So for almost all scenarios, BRD/MCH are penalized very little for their utility. The most impactful being having to use that utility during AOE scenarios where they really pull ahead in DPS ability.

[Kelevra]

I'd like to remind people that Bard was nerfed a long time ago due to their damage potential, and ability to move and shoot back in 2.0. Now they can't move and shoot anymore, but that doesn't mean they should get a free pass to get a dmg buff. Bards and Machinists do a fair amount of dmg and they don't need to be up in the range of melee. Duty finder will always be duty finder, and you got unlucky OP, bard/machinist don't need any buffs.

That was a part of it. I also believe they got nerfed back then because they were perceived by most in the community as being the 'braindead, easy/fun mode' job to play. And on the flip side, things still needed to be ironed out with Smn and there pets, Drg had unforgiving positionals, etc. But SE went through most of the 2.X series tweaking and patching the other jobs (such as Smn, Drg, War) after Brd's nerf in 2.1. Hardly ever giving any attention to Brd while doing so.

[Kelevra]

Well, we can't really balance jobs around "ifs" and "buts" though can we?

just as much as we can't expect everyone to have perfect runs, not make mistakes, and Ballad not be needed as you were asking/implying

[Judge_Xero]

just as much as we can't expect everyone to have perfect runs, not make mistakes, and Ballad not be needed as you were asking/implying

Well that is the reason I gave an example of BRD utility being needed 1/4 (90s) of an entire encounter (360s) totalling up to a measly 4% DPS decrease. Couple that with BRD/MCH having competitive DPS in the majority of content.

- Burst Phases with downtime (because BRD/MCH have some of the highest burst in the game)
- Multi Target - Ranged advantage for multidotting
- AOE - some of the highest AOE potential compared to other classes.

- Lacking? Single Target

and neither BRD or MCH are in a terrible position.

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The current mindset for BRD/MCH seems to be

- BRD is 10-15% behind other classes in Single Target damage so therefore it is behind by that much in all aspects
- If BRD has to use Ballad or Paeon their damage drops by half
- Without a DRG in the party BRD/MCH 10% lower than it could be.

Therefore BRD/MCH damage is half of other classes.

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In reality

- While BRD/MCH has lower single target damage than other classes, the majority of content does not involve straight single target encounters, and when they do they are broken up into small burst phases with downtime in between.
- I've shown how little BRD/MCH DPS is effected by their utility.
- Having a DRG in the party does boost BRD/MCH damage

BRD is roughly 7%
MCH is roughly 9%

Depending on the fight it may only be a slight 2-3% difference because Dot ticks aren't effected and not all mobs have the debuff at all times (AOE/Multi Target)

[Lemuel81]

That's been my thinking ever since raiding Alex savage. I love Minuet and think it was a step in the right direction, but Bard should be allowed to contribute just as much dmg as the other dmg dealers....and never out done by a damn Warrior (no dps job should be out done by a tank for that matter----when played correctly).

*in b4 someone uses a2s/fflogs as a reference*

A warrior and bard equally skilled and geared, yea im pretty sure the bard will come out ahead. (and I am not talking about trash pulls, that doesnt even count for anything)

[Kelevra]

And the mindset of most others that don't play Bard? They don't have to work as hard as other dps cuz no combos/positionals, so penalize them for their utilities and give incremental dps losses when using said utilities?

No, Bard dmg isn't 'half' of the other dps jobs, but it's still behind.
If a Bard uses it's utility, it's dmg doesn't drop by half...but it still drops.
Drg or no Drg, if a Bard doesn't have to use there songs that incur the penalties, they still have to operate with the gap in weapon dmg.

How do you think a Drg would feel if they incurred a penalty each time they used Litany or a Mnk for giving ppl Mantra? Ninja...for using Trick Attack/Goad?
A Smn for throwing there Eye for an Eye on a tank?

U think they would be cool with a 7% and 9% incremental dps loss on AoE and/or single target?

[Sleigh]

This topic's funny ...

BRD/MCH raid DPS contribution is fine, especially BRD with smart Foe's. They don't need a DPS boost (MCH kind of does; I vote Hypercharge works on all damage types), they're already reasonably close to melee on single target (with a DRG) while providing said raid utility AND gaining more from breaks/adds/AoE than most, not to mention the near mandatory TP contributions. Shall we return to 2.0 when BRDs were just a bit stronger and you'd want to stack them? Even by 2.4, when they started scaling mega upwards with crit (and as will happen in 3.2 and 3.4 probably), BRD was borderline stackable if you played with godly ones.

If this topic's about, "oh my 4 BRDs should would stink in DF!" I must say ... yeah, so? DRK DRK without a NIN would stink. Casters without BRD stacked wouldn't be that great. 4 NIN wouldn't even be that great, they wouldn't coordinate their Trick Attacks too well in a DF this is for certain. There are optimal comps out there, and there are comps that aren't intended, but the difference isn't a big enough deal. You don't enrage in DF content (which is mostly outdated or extremely easy content), you don't fail tight DPS checks (because there aren't any in general); what happens in DF is you get paired with 3-4 other DPS who suck at their jobs to the point where you could be a Shield Oath PLD and probably beat some of them. You don't balance party synergy around what the DF can come up with for a comp, this game doesn't even have serious content to do in DF.

[Archaell]

Duty finder could be more selective even if it would slightly increase the Q times.

Just because content is easy doesn't mean that groups don't fail due to the party composition. Especially in random DF groups you need every little adventage you can get.

In my opinion the light party should be limited to one support job and full party to two. It wouldn't also hurt if every job could be only once in the light party and twice in the full party. For the premade groups' sake allow them to ignore this limit, but don't put another support to the group when there are already two in the premade one.

[Themis]

Yes, people in pre-made parties limit the number of support dps they bring, but:

2) DF will pair multiple support dps, making content harder to catch up for people. Especially in cases where the fight just is moved there. I *believe* you still can't solo queue for Thordan but as soon as it is this will be a problem, as will any fight of moderate+ difficulty.

When Thordan gets added to the DF it will be during 3.2 most likely, if not at the start. At this point, the highest item level will be increased which will offset a lot of the damage requirements that might be required.

It will be very easy to get hold of an i210 weapon simply through Eso + Gobdip (that will also be easier to get). A lot more i210 animas will also exist by then. Not to mention, a new tome weapon will be available that will be a higher item level than that. Not to mention that more players will have i210 Eso gear, plus a piece or two of the newer tier gear.

If Thordan was available right now, and there wasn't any way to control just what composition you would get, this would be much more valid to assume. I take issue with it, though, because the reality will be different in the future to what it is currently to a point where damage output is already going to be higher (unless everyone in the group is not very skilled at the game but that can lead to failures in any content).

On a musing: It would be interesting to see 4 BRDs/MCHs take on the content just to see how much of a difference it makes, if any. Of course, finding people to do that early on in the progression/farming would be almost impossible.

[Kaze3434]

...random party comp of:

Paladin, Paladin, Astrologian, Astrologian, Bard, Bard, Bard, Bard (and they all rotate Foe's as you suggest)


yeah....no thank you

because of how duty finder works, this party comp is generally never going to happen.