Issue with double standards with Se and defining between dps and support.

[Judge_Xero]

Well, we can't really balance jobs around "ifs" and "buts" though can we?

Unfortunately you can't have every job buff it's own damage type as that would ruin party synergy as well.

SCH can DPS almost indefinitely using Aetherflow and Energy Drain. MP Cost + MP recovery is really close.

WHM can solo heal without Ballad with the occasional DPS added in for all DF encounters.

Not sure where AST stands.

In the case of a healer death or a healer having to Raise + having MP issues reduce BRD/MCH dps by another 2% for ~42 seconds of Ballad to get them to their next MP recovery CD.

Paeon + Ballad 90 seconds total time -> 4% damage reduction over a 6 minute encounter. Even at 4% DPS loss that could be the difference between a run with lucky crits or not.

So for almost all scenarios, BRD/MCH are penalized very little for their utility. The most impactful being having to use that utility during AOE scenarios where they really pull ahead in DPS ability.

[Kelevra]

Well, we can't really balance jobs around "ifs" and "buts" though can we?

just as much as we can't expect everyone to have perfect runs, not make mistakes, and Ballad not be needed as you were asking/implying

[Judge_Xero]

just as much as we can't expect everyone to have perfect runs, not make mistakes, and Ballad not be needed as you were asking/implying

Well that is the reason I gave an example of BRD utility being needed 1/4 (90s) of an entire encounter (360s) totalling up to a measly 4% DPS decrease. Couple that with BRD/MCH having competitive DPS in the majority of content.

- Burst Phases with downtime (because BRD/MCH have some of the highest burst in the game)
- Multi Target - Ranged advantage for multidotting
- AOE - some of the highest AOE potential compared to other classes.

- Lacking? Single Target

and neither BRD or MCH are in a terrible position.

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The current mindset for BRD/MCH seems to be

- BRD is 10-15% behind other classes in Single Target damage so therefore it is behind by that much in all aspects
- If BRD has to use Ballad or Paeon their damage drops by half
- Without a DRG in the party BRD/MCH 10% lower than it could be.

Therefore BRD/MCH damage is half of other classes.

-----------------------------------------------

In reality

- While BRD/MCH has lower single target damage than other classes, the majority of content does not involve straight single target encounters, and when they do they are broken up into small burst phases with downtime in between.
- I've shown how little BRD/MCH DPS is effected by their utility.
- Having a DRG in the party does boost BRD/MCH damage

BRD is roughly 7%
MCH is roughly 9%

Depending on the fight it may only be a slight 2-3% difference because Dot ticks aren't effected and not all mobs have the debuff at all times (AOE/Multi Target)

[Kelevra]

And the mindset of most others that don't play Bard? They don't have to work as hard as other dps cuz no combos/positionals, so penalize them for their utilities and give incremental dps losses when using said utilities?

No, Bard dmg isn't 'half' of the other dps jobs, but it's still behind.
If a Bard uses it's utility, it's dmg doesn't drop by half...but it still drops.
Drg or no Drg, if a Bard doesn't have to use there songs that incur the penalties, they still have to operate with the gap in weapon dmg.

How do you think a Drg would feel if they incurred a penalty each time they used Litany or a Mnk for giving ppl Mantra? Ninja...for using Trick Attack/Goad?
A Smn for throwing there Eye for an Eye on a tank?

U think they would be cool with a 7% and 9% incremental dps loss on AoE and/or single target?

[Kayko]

In reality

- While BRD/MCH has lower single target damage than other classes, the majority of content does not involve straight single target encounters, and when they do they are broken up into small burst phases with downtime in between.


BRD is roughly 7%
MCH is roughly 9%

Made up numbers are made up.

Taking a look at the available numbers for Alexander Savage shows a different story.
I took the top 400 (if available) and averaged the dps.
BRD=1309.4
BLM=1431.8
DRG=1391.4
MCH=1182.9
MNK=1470.2
NIN=1289.9
SMN=1480.3


Average DPS among all damage dealing jobs throughout Alexander Savage is 1365.1.
That puts (JOB = #%) above/below average
BRD = -4.17%
BLM = 4.77%
DRG = 1.91%
MCH = -14.30%
MNK = 7.41%
NIN = -5.67%
SMN = 8.10%

Just looking at ranged puts an average DPS at 1351.1 and that turns into:
BRD = -3.14%
BLM = 5.80%
MCH = -13.27%
SMN = 9.12%

If you wish to take a look at how things all came out with avarages among sections and jobs, here is a quick spreadsheet that has the numbers side by side. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...icTxC4evtii_ys

Keep in mind that these percentages are against the AVERAGE DPS. Take MCH who is 13% behind the average is actually about 22.5% behind SMN or 19% behind BLM. BRD is almost 9% behind BLM.

[Sleigh]

Made up numbers are made up.

Two things.

You are averaging all of Savage (and I'm not sure what the top 400 proves, I can tell you right now the a whole lot of the top 400 of any class aren't performing very well) which highly leans towards casters due to their A1 and A2 supremacy.

and

His 7% for BRD, 9% for MCH, the entire basis for you doing that averaging out, were in relation to Disembowel's effect on BRD/MCH, not some statistic on how far they are behind other classes.

[whiskeybravo]

You are averaging all of Savage (and I'm not sure what the top 400 proves, I can tell you right now the a whole lot of the top 400 of any class aren't performing very well) which highly leans towards casters due to their A1 and A2 supremacy.

This kinda seems like a moot point since it's the only information available, regardless of the quality of information, it's the best collection of job/community performance available. Probably didn't need to go all the way to 400 but that helps even out all those padded dps numbers.

I find it pretty interesting, didn't seem like MCH was that far behind.

[Judge_Xero]

Huh? If you know your job's dps rotation to a pretty strong degree goto any training dummy and you will see what I am talking about. That is the only true way that every job can be properly calculated for an accurate window of which dd is actually stronger. On a training dummy you will see monk/ninja/dragoon pull ahead of the bard by more then just a 8-9% margin.

Not correct, since each class has it's strengths and weaknesses. In that case you are only comparing the single target potential of a class. If that was the case you could say, the only proper way to compare classes was in an AOE rotation.

You should go to an area with 3-4 Training Dummy's together and compare all classes. I can't remember exactly what it is for BRD on 4 Mobs but I think it's in the range of a +60% difference VS single target.