Issue with double standards with Se and defining between dps and support.

[Tsilyi]

Are equally skilled/geared brd/mch getting out dpsed by OT warriors on single target still? I thought that wasn't a thing anymore. Shows how much I know. I'm honestly curious.

[HoodRat]

I don't understand the point of this thread. Don't bring 4 bards/machinists into a raid if you're going to complain that they do low dps. And if you're talking about getting 4 in df, I don't see how that matters since it's df. Everyone will probably be garbage regardless of what class they are.

[enthauptet]

They could make a support stance that is like ast stance where you can't switch it when in combat, when turned on we get low damage and support and when off we get damage boost to match other DPS classes.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

This game does not have support classes. Only DPS.

"Support" basicly means "Crippled" and might as well shove them in the handicapped DPS parking space.

Oh, real DPS classes can actually park there, NVM.



Check out the Dirge in EQ2:
- Same damage as Tank Classes.
- Buff that increases Mana regeneration by 100%. (Does not stack with other bards.)
- Buff that increases groups critical chance by 12.5%. (Does not stack with other bards.)
- Buff that increases tanks enmity gain by 40%. (Does not stack with other bards.)
- Buff that makes you avoid 10% of all damage taken to the group. (Does not stack with other bards.)
- Buff that increases groups out of combat movement speed by 30%. (Does not stack with other bards.)
- The ability to heal anyone in a pinch, giving him 1 life for 1/2 his life. Channeled.
- The ability to instantly rez a target with full life every minute, no GCD.

None of these abilities/songs lowered your damage. You were balanced around being able to only have a few songs up at a time. You COULD have all listed above up at once. However there were also songs that improved DPS/Attack Speed/Reuse/Defenses/Damage Reduction!

This was also earlier in the game's life too. You should of seen the buffs they got later!

"THAT" is support, not this trash.


Bard and Gunner are just glorified DPS classes. There are also no crowd control classes either, this game has no need for crowd control or support.

[whiskeybravo]

DF content is able to be completed with any party comp. The best party comp doesn't mean jack if the players themselves aren't that good. All things being equal, a party like 4 bards is going to kill things a bit slower than an optimal party comp, but it's still doable. Does it suck? Yea I guess, the DF should be able to better match party comps (I do think for the most part it does a good job of this). I don't recall ever having as strange of a party set up as that, but it's random. I don't think it's a "double standard". Classes with more utility have less throughput. See Paladin, Ninja, Bard, Machinist, and Astrologian. It's not specific to brd/mch.

[Kelevra]

DF content is able to be completed with any party comp. The best party comp doesn't mean jack if the players themselves aren't that good. All things being equal, a party like 4 bards is going to kill things a bit slower than an optimal party comp, but it's still doable. Does it suck? Yea I guess, the DF should be able to better match party comps (I do think for the most part it does a good job of this). I don't recall ever having as strange of a party set up as that, but it's random. I don't think it's a "double standard". Classes with more utility have less throughput. See Paladin, Ninja, Bard, Machinist, and Astrologian. It's not specific to brd/mch.

That's already been established. But, again, when things like 'enrage' or some form of it are a thing with a majority of stuff in the current end game...ppl are gonna, understandably, shy away from a dps composition like 4 Bards. Unless said content is dated and ppl are overgeared for it. I don't think whether it being 'doable' or not is what the OP was trying to say/ask.

A Paladin has utility available to it... (with them being designated as a tank) it's enmity generation isn't less or reduced whenever they use something like Divine Veil/Cover/Clemency nor do they receive more dmg from tankbusters for using their utilities. Cuz unlike Warrior, they are actually a tank b4 an unofficial dps.

An Astrologian has utility (RNG) available to it...(with them being labeled as a healer) it's outgoing heals don't suddenly become less potent whenever they throw a card on someone, with them being a healer first, cleric stance dps second.

Now, a Bard has utility available to it. With it being a dps, their outgoing dmg does receive a penalty. First, for it being available to them in the form of 'indefinite' regens (cuz this is what good Bards like to do...turn on Ballad/Paeon and let it run non stop) for everyone else....nerfed weapon damage. For actually using it mid fight to help out someone in need...15% dmg penalty.

When a Ninja (with it as well being labeled a dps like Bard) uses Goad, Trick Attack, Shadewalker (or whatever it's called), Smokescreen...they receive no dmg penalty. Not to my knowledge anyway.

[Sidra]

While it's true BRD and MCH don't quite output as much single target DPS as the other jobs, the difference isn't large enough that it makes any difference in the faceroll content (4man, alexnormal, void ark) even if you ended up full of bard and machinists in the dps slots. No changes necessary.

[Judge_Xero]

Now, a Bard has utility available to it. With it being a dps, their outgoing dmg does receive a penalty. First, for it being available to them in the form of 'indefinite' regens (cuz this is what good Bards like to do...turn on Ballad/Paeon and let it run non stop) for everyone else....nerfed weapon damage. For actually using it mid fight to help out someone in need...15% dmg penalty.

Ballad/Paeon effects everyone in range, so you can't really compare that level of utility to Goad.

Foe's doesn't have a damage penalty.

How big of an issue is Ballad/Paeon as a DPS decrease?

Let's look at a 6 minute encounter (360 seconds) because this is about the point where melee would need some TP help (after Invigorates etc). Paeon can recover 30 TP per tick (3s) so it would take ~42 seconds to recover an Invigorate worth of TP to help melee reach that next Invigorate usage.

45 (42 + 3s Song Cast) seconds of a 360 second fight -> 12.5% round it to 13% (to account for the 1 lost attack from using Ballad) of the fight you are doing 15% less damage.

Overall this amounts to (13% * 15%) -> 2% damage loss.

Should you really include MP as well? Possibly, but healers have such good MP management utilities that most of the time you wont need Ballad other than in the case of a death.

[Nyghtmarerobu]

I'd like to remind people that Bard was nerfed a long time ago due to their damage potential, and ability to move and shoot back in 2.0. Now they can't move and shoot anymore, but that doesn't mean they should get a free pass to get a dmg buff. Bards and Machinists do a fair amount of dmg and they don't need to be up in the range of melee. Duty finder will always be duty finder, and you got unlucky OP, bard/machinist don't need any buffs.

[Kelevra]

Ballad/Paeon effects everyone in range, so you can't really compare that level of utility to Goad.

Foe's doesn't have a damage penalty.

How big of an issue is Ballad/Paeon as a DPS decrease?

Utility is utility and smart preemptive uses of Goad can put it on the same lvl as Paeon, if not better.

I didn't say anything about Foe's in the other post, cause it doesn't have a dmg penalty as you pointed out. But you know what else, it also doesn't benefit a Bard's own Windbite and Flaming Arrow either. Whereas the other physical dps all have utility (Disembowel, Dragon Kick, Dancing Edge) that properly buff some of the moves in there own arsenal while benefiting select other jobs as well.

And Ballad is still needed, even with the cool mp tools introduced to healers with the expansion. Cuz you know, now a days, u have one that likes to stay cleric n dps and leave the other to solo heal. And sometimes, solo healing can burn the mp pretty quick (even with stuff like Assize, Ewer cards, etc)...let alone someone actually dying like u said. Which in turn, can suck pretty hard for a Bard's dmg output.