Issue with double standards with Se and defining between dps and support.

[Kelevra]

But that is what I'm saying. 4 support would be viable. Especially if it's 4 MCH all rotating Hypercharge.

Even BRDs can still rotate Foes at 0 DPS loss for higher healer DPS.

Besides, in the DF the greater concern is whether some can even play their class not the 5-10% difference between support and dps damage.

...random party comp of:

Paladin, Paladin, Astrologian, Astrologian, Bard, Bard, Bard, Bard (and they all rotate Foe's as you suggest)


yeah....no thank you

[Arrik]

But that is what I'm saying.

Well at least with multiple support classes you will only have 1 who takes a DPS loss.

That's not what you said. More than 1 support dps is not just a dps loss for 1 as stated. It may be a loss of 1 over the other support dps (which may be what you ment) but they are all clearly behind a regular dps so they are all taking a dps loss for simply existing.

...random party comp of:

Paladin, Paladin, Astrologian, Astrologian, Bard, Bard, Bard, Bard (and they all rotate Foe's as you suggest)


yeah....no thank you

The horror!

[AskaRay]

...random party comp of:

Paladin, Paladin, Astrologian, Astrologian, Bard, Bard, Bard, Bard (and they all rotate Foe's as you suggest)


yeah....no thank you

But it is possible to get through DF'd stuff with this...
any of the raids? Coil? Well, show me a more balanced DF group that gets through that, too.

[Kelevra]

But it is possible to get through DF'd stuff with this...
any of the raids? Coil? Well, show me a more balanced DF group that gets through that, too.

...no Int debuff, no slashing debuff, alot of non-traited Blood for Blood (with ranged dps having the least max health among physical dmg dealers), LB3 being weaker than both melee and caster, no Eye for an Eye/Virus, RNG utilty with Astrologian, etc, etc with that particular random party make up

...is it possible, didn't say it wasn't, but still at a disadvantage vs a random composition comprised of 4 melee or 4 casters

[AskaRay]

...no Int debuff, no slashing debuff, alot of non-traited Blood for Blood (with ranged dps having the least max health among physical dmg dealers), LB3 being weaker than both melee and caster, no Eye for an Eye/Virus, RNG utilty with Astrologian, etc, etc with that particular random party make up

...is it possible, didn't say it wasn't, but still at a disadvantage vs a random composition comprised of 4 melee or 4 casters

But it's still possible. Unless everyone is a terrible player, you will still clear the content. It's not like it's utterly unbeatable.
No, it isn't "ideal" but it is a thing that can be done.

Do I want a WD buff? Sure I do, but the fact is we probably aren't getting one and if we don't it's not game breaking.

[Kelevra]

But it's still possible. Unless everyone is a terrible player, you will still clear the content. It's not like it's utterly unbeatable.
No, it isn't "ideal" but it is a thing that can be done.

Do I want a WD buff? Sure I do, but the fact is we probably aren't getting one and if we don't it's not game breaking.

thanks, that's sorta what the topic of the thread has been getting at

[Kaze3434]

...random party comp of:

Paladin, Paladin, Astrologian, Astrologian, Bard, Bard, Bard, Bard (and they all rotate Foe's as you suggest)


yeah....no thank you

because of how duty finder works, this party comp is generally never going to happen.

[Judge_Xero]

because of how duty finder works, this party comp is generally never going to happen.

But it could and it's not fair, that in that particular circumstance BRD/MCH would be at a disadvantage. Completely game-breaking balance. (end sarcasm)

(MCH kind of does; I vote Hypercharge works on all damage types)

You are pretty much dead on with that. By looking at a lot of battle logs comparing BRD/MCH in the cases where BRD has a higher advantage it would most definitely be offset by the Bishop Turret offering an increase to Melee damage as well, as well with the Rook Turret being able to transfer the debuff to multiple separate mobs having a "General" debuff through hypercharge would definitely be the best approach to balance.

Drg or no Drg, if a Bard doesn't have to use there songs that incur the penalties, they still have to operate with the gap in weapon dmg.

Where does this keep coming from? That because BRD/MCH has lower weapon damage therefore they have lower damage?

Do Melee have lower damage than magic users because Magic Damage is higher than Physical Damage? It's just a method to control damage scaling with gear and based on the job play style. If BRD/MCH Physical Damage matched Melee Physical Damage then they would put out so much more damage than Melee could and would almost match SMN in AOE potential.

[Galibier]

Okay on one point regarding the OP. That's any group finder system for ya and the DF instances are tuned to acknowledge this reality, so while not an ideal group the content is still more than doable.

That said since they have said no to dedicated support classes there really is no other option. The marginally lower dps is a consequence of the extensive utility the particular jobs bring. If you want the dps of a pure dps, you roll dps. It's not like its a secret that Hard and Machinist do less dps most of the time.

As for conflicts...well if you are really concerned about that lots of jobs have conflicts with buffs/debuffs, within and across other jobs if you are really interested in min/maxing.

[Kelevra]

Where does this keep coming from? That because BRD/MCH has lower weapon damage therefore they have lower damage?

Do Melee have lower damage than magic users because Magic Damage is higher than Physical Damage? It's just a method to control damage scaling with gear and based on the job play style. If BRD/MCH Physical Damage matched Melee Physical Damage then they would put out so much more damage than Melee could and would almost match SMN in AOE potential.

I say that because with the strongest weapons currently available to us (i205 Thordan/ i210 relic/ i210 Eso weapon/ i210 Gordian), the gap in weapon dmg, considering just physical dmg dealers, widens again. Bard doesn't get an increase in WD going from the i205 Thordan Bow to any of the i210 weapons. The melee do get an increase tho....going from their i205 to any i210 weapon. Even if it's a small increase, it's still a jump in dmg for them.

But w/e. We've been back n forth on this for the last few pages. I'm just gonna agree to disagree with you. You think Bard doesn't need any fine tuning/improvements. I strongly feel they do and stand by that. Most jobs have gone through their fair share of fine tuning and such since ARR launched. And Bard is overdue for the same treatment.