Issue with double standards with Se and defining between dps and support.

[Tilgung]

There's absolutely no reason not to double DoT when you can. And if a job can take advantage of it, they are objectively good in that fight.

[Vlady]

And where do bards and machinist compare with single target dps vs other dps?

[Duuude007]

I have a feeling that they are doing soft adjustments between classes to rebalance some as dps centric or support centric, in an attempt to ease us into an eventual 4th role in parties: tank, healer, dps, hybrid(support).

A party of 4 would have one of each, party of 8, 2 of each.

[Blitzace]

I would like to ask, Who brings 4BRDS to Savage to begin with? And if you're talking about normal alex, DPS should be a non-issue right now. I've seen a BRD pull 1300+ DPS in DF(Keep in mind he was being buffed by ast and probably some other stuff) But still. Stop acting like 4x BRD can't clear content. Thats just silly.

[Vlady]

I would like to ask, Who brings 4BRDS to Savage to begin with? And if you're talking about normal alex, DPS should be a non-issue right now. I've seen a BRD pull 1300+ DPS in DF(Keep in mind he was being buffed by ast and probably some other stuff) But still. Stop acting like 4x BRD can't clear content. Thats just silly.

I believe you miss the point. The point is bard dps is lower overall then other dps jobs. Both a machinist and a bard should be able to be brought to savage at the same time based on their dps abilities but are not because they are 10-15% below every other labeled dps. Machinist even more so after the burst ends.

[Lilith_Merquise]

The only way I would support having BRD/MCH and maybe even AST as support. Is if they actually made abilities/buffs/debuffs/enfeebles that actually contributed greatly to a fight (And mobs didn't get immune to in 2-3 uses...). In it's current form, the only thing that makes BRD/MCH "Support" is a resource regeneration ability that is niche purposed, rarely used, and even discouraged to be used frequently in fears of nerfing damage output. Not only do they punish the class for having these abilities, but they also punish the class for using them.... That's NOT a support class. I'm all for making it one though, but first they need to embrace it as such, and actually give it the utility by picking a direction, rather then trying to make it competitive but artificially not making it competitive on purpose. YES you can min/max your abilities and get some awesome DPS all you Raider BRD/MCH out there but you'll never be better or even equal to a MNK, DRG, SMN, BLM of equal Skill and practice. That's just a fact.

The bottom line here is if you're going to make it a support then give it support abilities that ACTUALLY MATTER and can do it's "OK DPS" that it does now.

If you're going to make it a DPS with a non-essential resource regeneration (when most classes have their own and if are good should be able to manage their own resources with out needing your help outside of Savage Content) take off the stupid Artificial training wheels that hold the DPS back, and make it actually worth while (taking off % proc chance for next rotation step, making it a higher % at the least, take off the restrictions on Skill Speed (ESPECIALLY IF YOU'RE GOING TO PUT IT ON THE FREAKING RELIC! IT BETTER BE WORTH A DAMN!.... slow breaths... deep breaths.... ok) so you can actually diversify gear rather then Dex, Crit and Det...).

Consider this, when was the last time MCH got lip for not using Dismantle/Rend Mind for -5% Boss DPS or AST for Disable's -10% DPS? When I use them most of the party doesn't even notice and if anything I'll get a "Wow.... nobody uses that" or "Huh... why did that hit lower then usual?" and even that is rare... When was the last time that Defense/Resistances actually mattered? Even for tanks it's pretty much a non-factor when selecting End Game gear... And the answer is never, because SE made these things meaningless so that "All classes can be equal!" which are the whole point of the classes identity and ironically has made the classes that depend on these being useful... useless...

[Lilith_Merquise]

Also, if you think "BRD/MCH is great, it doesn't need a buff" please tell me how many PF's you''ll stick with when you see 3-4 BRD/MCH over 3-4 BLM/SMN or MNK/DRG. I can tell you with out even knowing most of you, 90% of you would either doubt the comp enough to drop after 1-2 wipes, drop the group on the onset or plead for someone to trade up roles. While probably about 20% of you would react that way to the 3-4 BLM/SMN or MNK/DRG.

[Vlady]

Lilith is scary lady.... uhm I nominate her for thread representitive.

[Warlyx]

i agree with lilith , BRD (MCH) are doing lower dmg because the have "support" (something i still dont agree , since all the dps but BLM have some kind of support , +10% dmg , crit buff , battle rez, e4e, virus .... ) , support that in 2.0 was "OK" , but in 3.0 is rarely used....outside FOE if u are bard , and -5% physical dmg if u are MCH....

come 3.0 BRD gained CASTING TIMES while staying the same dps wise

2.0 brd did 80% (~) of the melee dps while being the most mobile job , 3.0 we still do the same % dmg but we have casting times! (WM boost dmg by 30%!!!!) yet we are in the same spot as 2.0 , but with casting times.... sometimes i wonder wth , all the bards were tricked into thinking that WM was the answer to keep up with at least mages dps....it has a DPS % boost and casting times so it makes sense, then u realize that ...nope... all that % dmg and casting times was a hidden nerf to mobility w/o gaining any dmg at all....

oh and dont forget animations , look how awesome DRG, SMN ....feel now , now lock back at BRD...now lock back at SMN , now back at BRD.... , we even share animation with DRK (their aoe drain has the same animation as sidewinder) ...feels like SE didnt even care ...and rushed the brd in 3.0 who needs unique animations for that loljob?... + Wardens Paeon /yawn ...3.0 has been " a slap in the face" hahaha

p.d WEAPON DAMAGE BUFF please ? while i love that 205 and 210 weapons have the same WD ...is a bit disheartening.

[Cetonis]

Non-offensive "utility" like TP/MP regen, virus etc. rarely if ever provide benefit in stacking, and with the limit break restrictions coming back there's even more reason not to be concerned that groups might just stop bringing role x if role y deals too much damage.

So, I think having BRD/MCH do around the same dummy contributed-DPS as SMN would be about appropriate, as they're all quasi-mobile (BRD the least so) caster classes.... but the thing is, BRD/MCH kind of already -are- competitive with SMN when you add in that ~1%/0.75% Foe/Hyper contribution to raid DPS. So I begrudgingly tell myself that things are kind of okay in the way that NIN doing less raw DPS is okay? Though the reliance on DRG for 8% of our damage will never not be stupid.

You could make the case that SMN's single target damage is too low to begin with, and that all three should be brought up a bit (or BLM brought a bit down in tandem with the Astral Fire loosening). And/or that the gap between melee cDPS and ranged cDPS on the whole is bigger than it needs to be. But those are separate/broader lines of argument.