Why are low standards for dps acceptable?

[The_Greatest_Evil]

the lack of empathy and humanity is so much lacking in this thread , u dont know whats going on in someone else head at the moment u join party finder :P

the rage building up in some people here is astonishing , maybe you should try to rage at something else ^^

i really wished there was a server wide blacklist , so i could blacklist some of the people here and never play with them :P

Please add me to blacklist. I like it.

[Kaurie]

All I got from people like the OP in this thread are "WAAAAHHHH I can't stand long ques so I go as tank or healer to get in more groups. Now I'm grouped with someone not as good as me and playing the class I'd rather be playing WAAAHHHH. I'm better, my epeen sails across the stars themselves!"

The OP was the BRD, not a Healer or a Tank. Regardless, the system in place encourages you to play other jobs, and the only end-game content that is realistic for a secondary are the 60 dungeons. Therefore,it makes perfect sense that the OP may opt to play something other than their primary to mix things up.

You want perfect groups and everyone on the same page? Stop pugging and form your own groups with people you know.

I personally hate statements like these. It really doesn't add anything to the argument, and is merely used to deflect from the problem.

The crux of the issue is that you are going into content willingly accepting you will be seeing anywhere from 1-7 random members who come from all walks of life and game play style. This is the contract you sign going in, nothing more, nothing less.

I am not saying I disagree, but by that logic, we should accept when people are complete jerks in DF. We should be totally happy with people running parsers and calling out DPS. As these are all different play styles people have, and we need to be accepting of each.

Should you want for great members who all do their job to expectation perhaps even above and beyond? Sure that's a great outlook.
Should you expect everyone to play to your standard all the time? No. That's unrealistic.

Indeed, that is precisely my view on it.

Should that crummy DPS comform to your will? Why should he, your not willing to conform to his and you both stand at a stalemate. The option to leave or initiate vote-kick is your two options of recourse in this situation and moving forward choosing who your party with gives you full control over expectations and social accountability for any content. The issue is the lack of urgency and overall apathy towards the subject. Your not going to get anywhere just expecting people to do as you say.

I personally feel you are conforming to the crummy DPSes will whether you like it or not. You're prevented from calling out DPS numbers, if you try to give advice you're often hit with harassment backlash, and the run will go slower to their level.

I really do not like the idea of advocating use of vote kick in this scenario though, just let people enjoy the game. It's unfortunate when you are queued with someone with a totally different mentality, but just suck it up and finish it. They don't deserve the boot.

Speak your voice to the people who enable this behavior rather than the practitioners, get at SE about their lack of encouragment and just lack outright of...

- Proper Party play
- Teaching players mechanics as they level
- Holding players accountable for their actions
- Encouraging preformed activities (The entire DF runs counter to this as well as the bonus system, we are in turn encouraged to run with random people for a bonus to reinforce the solo style of gameplay)
- Lack of fostering community with a heavy emphasis on instant gratification content requiring little to no outside assistance.

It's a lot to swallow and process but the entire games foundation only encourages people to act this way and sure you can be mad at the people who abuse the system but you should also be as mad at the people who push the system that does nothing but encourage it.

I agree, and I'd hope that is what this thread does. To my understanding, the dev team does receive feedback from the forums. I personally do not know of any other way to get the message back to them. This being a long thread means it's likely to be seen (I'd hope).

The people who play Ice Mage should be the least of our worries. Instead of making whiny threads with baseless attention grabbing titles (As debunked by logic it's not just DPS who have low standards, nor is anyone being a slacker really "Acceptable") We should be making well formulated suggestions to SE on how to counter this environment of toxicity and encourage accountability and community building.

Be the bigger person and rise ABOVE the situation and do your damndest to rectify the base problem instead of trying to systematically root out the individual problem cases.

I don't think an Ice Mage was the problem in this thread. That said, there are no such things as Ice Mages in this game, as much as I'd love to have specializations within each role. An Ice Mage is no different than a WHM who queues in as a Cleric-Stance only WHM, expecting the tank to keep himself alive. Or a tank that queues in as a Deliverance-only tank and figures that Titan can pick up the slack. An Ice Mage is indeed pulling lower numbers than the tank, and sometimes the healer, so yes it is passing off their role as a Damage Dealer to one of the other roles.

The standards are definitely set low for DPS more-so than other jobs. If one of my above examples occurred, people would be in uproar. "This tank refused to tank!" or "This healer refused to heal!". However, we coddle damage dealers, because we don't want to create a toxic environment (Mission Succeeded!)

Circling back to your points

- Proper Party play
I would love to see a system that is focused less on just burning trash packs and more focused on coordination and communication.
- Teaching players mechanics as they level
I feel the game already does this, and eases you into mechanics. The issue is that most content (even at 60) allows you to bypass mechanics by either getting carried by other players, or by out-gearing. This is most commonly seen with DPS, due to their being more than 1 damage dealer in a party to pick up the slack.
- Holding players accountable for their actions
Honestly, I think that we need less hard-coded ways of holding each other accountable, and put it more on the player. Allow people to use parsers (and provide API support), and let people call out poor play. This is a much better method of holding someone accountable than fear of being kicked without a word. These player-driven accountable systems are already in place for Healers and Tanks, and work quite well (most healers and tanks know how to properly fulfill their roles at 60).
- Encouraging preformed activities
100% agree, the bonus roulette is extremely frustrating. I like that you can queue in full parties for the higher level stuff now though.
- Lack of fostering community with a heavy emphasis on instant gratification content requiring little to no outside assistance.
Indeed, the only aspect of the game that fits this bill are Raids imo. Having a static runs completely opposite to this point. I think it would be great if more of the game was challenging and had content designed around coordination, to encourage this sort of play.

[Valkyrie-Amber]

I love threads like this cause its entertaining.

If you play a dps maximize your dps while advoiding as many aoes and stuff as possible.
if a tank then tank 4-8 groups at once maintain agro and use all defence cds in moderation.
if healer watch tanks hp and switch dps stance if things are going well and the dps arnt takeing meaningless hits.

fact is in a usual 4 person party tank healer and two dps, there only needs to be one good dps and most times there is one.
If your a dps person like me learn how to do as much dps as possible just incase you get a bad dps and dont complaine
cause you waste more time than its worth mostly.

if theres an afk break then offer your advice to whoever is lacking in a kind constructive way instead of saying your trash l2p
cause really I think people that say stuff like that have a trashy attertude.

[Odett]

It's cute how some people think that 800 DPS at ilv 190+ in any 8 player endgame fight with a DPS check is not a carry. The only reason why you DON'T wipe, is because your other party members are working hard to make up for your lack of damage. If all DPS were performing as poorly as you, you would wipe as a result of not meeting the DPS check, hence the term "carry". I guess you really have nothing left to input if you use misinformation as the crux of your argument.

[Undeadfire]

It's cute how some people think that 800 DPS at ilv 190+ in any 8 player endgame fight with a DPS check is not a carry. The only reason why you DON'T wipe, is because your other party members are working hard to make up for your lack of damage. If all DPS were performing as poorly as you, you would wipe as a result of not meeting the DPS check, hence the term "carry". I guess you really have nothing left to input if you use misinformation as the crux of your argument.

A3s/A4s does you that favor, mainly A4s. You can carry in A3S if everyone else is DPS are hardcore.

[bardaboo]

Well... last night i got called a p*ssy no life for suggesting to the monk in my lvl 50 roulette to wear str accessories instead of vit. And the whm from a different server than the monk said let him play how he wants? Where... WHAT is the mindset behind this?

[The_Greatest_Evil]

Well... last night i got called a p*ssy no life for suggesting to the monk in my lvl 50 roulette to wear str accessories instead of vit. And the whm from a different server than the monk said let him play how he wants? Where... WHAT is the mindset behind this?

We need more White Mages like this guy and less elitist please.

[Kaurie]

We need more White Mages like this guy and less elitist please.

You certainly are the greatest evil.

[Kurogaea]

Well... last night i got called a p*ssy no life for suggesting to the monk in my lvl 50 roulette to wear str accessories instead of vit. And the whm from a different server than the monk said let him play how he wants? Where... WHAT is the mindset behind this?

I imagine the mindset is, and I main a whm, "I'm keeping you guys alive, so 20% damage loss isn't going to keep us from succeeding in a level 50 dungeon." Probably that. :/

[Ossom]

I don't mind someone doing 700-800dps in a group, even in savage, you can technically 7man up to AS3 reasonably easily (relative to how hard the fight is with 8 people, doing it 7man isn't that much harder) so 7-800dps from one dps isn't too bad at all. I am upset at the people who do like 300-400 dps, who don't do positionals and follow no type of rotation at all, making up skill rotations as they go through the fight with no order. These are the people who need to be given some way to learn how to play their class better.