Why are low standards for dps acceptable?

[Vivi_Bushido]

As was already posted in this thread. And every other thread like it:

Hope this isn't a double post, my post about not being embarrassed wasn't supposed to be taken as I just don't give a damn. It means I'm not going to let it get to me or make a big deal out of not knowing things about the game or performing to others standards. I will always try to play my classes better but if I screw something up or not play a class right I'm not going to be embarrassed about it. If that makes sense. Also please stop with the stupid tic tac toe reference. I see the point you are trying to make but honestly ffxiv is way more complex then tic tac toe and it really doesn't fit this scenario.

Actually, it does fit the scenario and should be reposted more offended to create awareness when you have people such as the following posting:

I.. really have to explain the obvious to you? Sigh..

Your statement for a lot of us (even outside the forums) that you pay so you can expect everything given out to you with a silver spoon means nothing.

This game is optional. No one is forcing you to play. You play because you want to.

You pay to play, I pay to play. Simple right? That should end the conversation in itself.

Now let's say our way to play differs, which one is right?

You are going to show me numbers? lol

To make it clear since it seems it must be written: yeah the BLM should use Enochian. We are those who will try to use all of our skills, which is the point of leveling up: obtaining new skills.. Somes are meh, but nonetheless are part of your job that you chose to play at this moment.

What will you do if he won't/or simply wants to be an [...]? He still pays the same sub as you, so your point of paying to earn anything less than the best is moot.

Else: skip DF and find people who have the same point of view than you as how to play this game.

Hence my statement: Unless you are not paying, but getting PAYED to play it and to represent SE into championships, it's only a GAME.

First off, for someone who claims it's just a game, you seem to care way more about how others choose to play a game then you realize. If it's just a game, why do you care if I choose to take my game seriously? How is my game affecting you in anyway?

Secondly, regarding the underline statement, all I have to say is, "WTF!?" like seriously, that escalated quickly. All I said is that if I'm paying for a game, your damn right I'm going to take it seriously. It's no different then paying for a gym membership. Why bother if your not gonna take it seriously? Also, in what way does that imply I want things to be handed to me on a sliver spoon? That's a pretty bold accusation your making and is horribly misguided and construed. Did you even read my post? I mean, hell, I was only speaking for myself and here you are speaking on behalf of the forum users and people even outside the forums. Who elected you a SJW? I surely didn't. I only asked you to clarify yourself. I didn't ask for you to be insulting.

And yes, your right the game is optional, and with that logic, you could say everything in life is optional. I never once said anything about your playstyle or anyone else's. God forbidden actually wanting to take pride in myself and play a game seriously to improve in certain aspects such as hand and eye coordination makes me some kind of basement loser right? I should be more like other American's and sit in front of the television watching the football game eating Cheetos and drinking beer. (Not that there's anything wrong with that, I'm just trying to make a point here).

Lastly, in regards to playing a game competitively, you have to be good first before you can do that. One doesn't casually become a MLG. I mean, it's not impossible, but it's highly unlikely that a casual would become a MLG. You need to take that stuff seriously. And honestly, getting paid to be good at video games is like the dream job. Who wouldn't want to do that? Have you seen how much money some of the Let's Plays make on YouTube? The amount of money some gamers make for Charities? By taking their game seriously.

If it's just a game, then drawling a picture is just art right? No need to take it seriously. No reason to have pride in what you do. /sarcasm

Bottom line my point is, if I want to take my game seriously, so what? We pay the same fee as you said; but if I want to play my games seriously who're you to tell me that it's wrong? If games are designed to be fun, and I am having fun playing it this style, then it accomplished it's job, has it not?

[TheUltimateSeph]

That's exactly my point. You've gone through levels 1-50 gaining new skills or traits every 2 levels, and a new skill from your job NPC every 5 levels. Why would 50-60 (which requires the purchase of an expansion mind you) be any different? You're practically saying that having any form of expectation for the basic concept of the game is considered elitism.

I think there may be some confusion between the differences in an Elite and an Elitist. There is nothing inherently wrong with being an Elite. It's something to strive for. It sets you above all the non elite in terms of skill / capability. Google defines an Elite as 1. a select part of a group that is superior to the rest in terms of ability or qualities. This is not a bad thing. An Elitist as defined by google is 1. a person who believes that a system or society should be ruled or dominated by an elite. / favoring, advocating, or restricted to an elite.
In other words the Elitist expects everyone else to do things the way they see as the best way and will not tolerate any less or any alternatives because they deem the alternatives to be unacceptable. This is where I believe that expecting people to know they have new quests from an old npc that they already finished all the quests from at the time (prior to HW launch) is an elitist ideal. To some it may be common sense, to others not so much. Even if the thought had crossed their minds they may have expected it only every 5 levels and therefore only thought they might have missed two skills at most. For a lot of people this isn't worth investigating right away to see what they may have missed. Having expectations is not elitism but trying to force others to conform to your expectations is. To those saying that it's their own fault for not getting the skills or knowing, well, I think yes and no. It's on them that they didn't get the skills and SE can share a bit of the blame in my book for not putting a sort of notification in game, maybe in their Recommended Quests menu. But berating them for it and saying that they are what's wrong with the game isn't the way to approach the situation. It only alienates them and that is what creates this rift between extremely casual and more mid-core to hard-core players. This is all just my opinion of course.

[RiceisNice]

I think there may be some confusion between the differences in an Elite and an Elitist.

I know what elitism means, and you making a post to describe it is still missing the point and honestly feels like you're arguing for the sake defending yourself or being in the right.

Sorry all I see in you right now is an elitist who thinks everyone should automatically know things about the game based on some innate knowledge and research everything about the game whenever new patches are released. I stand by everything I have said here, and will only admit I could have said some of it nicer. Have a nice day/

This was your reply to someone saying that you should have known that you get new skills as you level. At that point, you're skipping over the basic concepts of a game that has character growth (something you don't even need to research mind you, because any game with a leveling system grants your characters more skill, even if it's a beat em up like castle crashers.) It become less of an elistist attitude because you didn't meet their expectation, but more of an "What an idiot" attitude because you've overlooked something really big, but also very fundamental to the game (which again, applies to almost anything outside of this game)

Our point is, stop defending, making up excuses, and victimizing the people who apparently can't grasp basic concepts of a game (which isn't just not having the new a bilties, but not understanding job mechanics.. This isn't a new thing by the point you're level 50 and you're still doing so. You don't need to "research" anything to know that you get new abilities as you level, and that you get new abilities from quests. You keep making up excuses on why they wouldn't have it (and quite frankly, they're terrible excuses because all it really boils down to is that you're tunnel visioning.)

But berating them for it and saying that they are what's wrong with the game isn't the way to approach the situation. It only alienates them and that is what creates this rift between extremely casual and more mid-core to hard-core players. This is all just my opinion of course.

Honestly, no one even brought this (not having skills because they skipped MSQ) until you did, and then you get called out for it. The topic intially started at a BLM that has a skill he already has access to, but chooses not to use it, and you responded with how you didn't know there was new skills between 50-60. Honestly, it really should have stopped at "Yeah i was in a rush to complete the story and I completely forgot I can get new skills when I level", a short-sighted mistake tat you got called out on and should've been left at that. Which goes back to my example about tunnel visioning. The rift is happening because you're throwing out the elitist tag for people apparently to expect others to know that you gain skills as you level, never mind have an understand of basic gameplay that has been reoccurring as soon as level 2 of this game. You perceive it as an attack because it's happened to you, but instead of accepting it and moving on, you want to justify it then label others who have that expectation (because you may have not been able to meet it as such initially) or call people out for having it because it's so fundamental to the game an elitist.

Regardless of your "hard numbers" or lack of, they can still kick you for calling them out if they have the support of more than themselves in 4 man content. Parsers wont help the problem at all, in my opinion they would only add another layer to the entire mess giving people another large stick to beat people with. Parsers are great for endgame content, but if your parsing people in a roulette dungeon just to call them out because they aren't going all out?]

People are going to do this regardless of parsers. However, its also grounds for people to genuinely not know where they are placing in their performance in a dungeon, and leaves for less "credibility" for the dps to gauge their contribution to the group (as opposed to the tank or healers, especially in a game where they both can contribute to dps). Right now if I was in a group, I can't even tell people they're doing less than the healers without being able to prove it and not risk getting myself banned. The "stick" is already there for people who have the parsers, except they just do it behind your back so chances are, they won't even know they're doing less than ideal without a word being said to them. If the concern is verbal harassment for doing low numbers...well verbal harassment is reportable to begin with and I don't think that it'd be a huge issue (espesically if said people are going ot harass people with low numbers because they have ACT on anyway, they just won't say it up front).

IMO only an oversensitive moron ignores genuine criticism, even if the criticism was given in a rude manner.

They have the right to ask the critic not to be rude, but they really shouldn't use that as an excuse to dodge the question as well.
The BLM should have given proper thought as to why they weren't using Enochian. The fact that they didn't just suggests that they're likely the type of bad who isn't keen on improving.

I'll say it again, because I feel that this is key to any sort of communication in regards to critique; It's only offensive if you take it as such. I personally wouldn't have minded being called a bot because honestly, no one ever talks in DF and I've had my fair share of botting. However if your performance can get that monotonous (which every job can do in regards to 1, 1-2-3 or BLM astral/umbral patterns is concerned,and the latter is incredibly notorious for that) to that point then something is up especially in a level 60 setting. Not to say there wasn't a better way of approaching it, but they wanted to make a scene out of it. They ended up starting using enochian, so they're just kicking for extremely petty reasons instead of legitimate ones :x

[TheUltimateSeph]

I know what elitism means, and you making a post to describe it is still missing the point and honestly feels like you're arguing for the sake defending yourself or being in the right.

Assuming that that is the only reason I'm arguing it is very presumptuous. I'm giving good examples and trying to get my point across. Can you address the examples I have given and go more in depth as to why you believe they aren't valid and how I'm missing the point please? I'm genuinely curious.

This was your reply to someone saying that you should have known that you get new skills as you level. At that point, you're skipping over the basic concepts of a game that has character growth (something you don't even need to research mind you, because any game with a leveling system grants your characters more skill, even if it's a beat em up like castle crashers.) It become less of an elistist attitude because you didn't meet their expectation, but more of an "What an idiot" attitude because you've overlooked something really big, but also very fundamental to the game (which again, applies to almost anything outside of this game)

Again this is subject to opinion. You see it as a big deal. And I'm sorry but your whole attitude towards players who don't use skills "What an idiot" is rather distasteful. There is always a good excuse and while the BLM may not have had a good excuse (I don't remember if they actually gave theirs or not, just that they weren't happy) just because you don't agree with it doesn't automatically make it bad.

Our point is, stop defending, making up excuses, and victimizing the people who apparently can't grasp basic concepts of a game (which isn't just not having the new a bilties, but not understanding job mechanics.. This isn't a new thing by the point you're level 50 and you're still doing so. You don't need to "research" anything to know that you get new abilities as you level, and that you get new abilities from quests. You keep making up excuses on why they wouldn't have it (and quite frankly, they're terrible excuses because all it really boils down to is that you're tunnel visioning.)

Maybe I was tunnel visioning but that doesn't make it any less of a valid excuse. I am very sorry for having even brought it up though because it seems to be the one thing people have latched onto instead of my arguments actually explaining excuses the BLM could have had for not using Enochian.

Honestly, no one even brought this (not having skills because they skipped MSQ) until you did, and then you get called out for it. The topic intially started at a BLM that has a skill he already has access to, but chooses not to use it, and you responded with how you didn't know there was new skills between 50-60. Honestly, it really should have stopped at "Yeah i was in a rush to complete the story and I completely forgot I can get new skills when I level", a short-sighted mistake tat you got called out on and should've been left at that. Which goes back to my example about tunnel visioning. The rift is happening because you're throwing out the elitist tag for people apparently to expect others to know that you gain skills as you level, never mind have an understand of basic gameplay that has been reoccurring as soon as level 2 of this game. You perceive it as an attack because it's happened to you, but instead of accepting it and moving on, you want to justify it then label others who have that expectation (because you may have not been able to meet it as such initially) or call people out for having it because it's so fundamental to the game an elitist.

I already explained how this was not directly related to the OPs situation and that I was only trying to give another example of why people may not use the skills as there is more then one reason.

You are still ignoring the healers input after the OP.

Youre so stuck in your bubble you cant fathom someone being ignorant to the game in general.

I think Critical-Limit has a good point. It feels like you just can't accept that others may have valid excuses for not using skills or playing the game to your standards that you are in fact tunnel visioning yourself instead of trying to understand from their perspective. You have already made it clear that you only think they are idiots for not knowing skills existed or for not using them. Can you please explain to me why exactly it gets to you so much? If it's because of these people slowing down your dungeon runs tons of good solutions have been scattered throughout this thread and the forums in general.


Edit:

In the end game dungeons such as Fractal Continuum and Neverreap, there are many dodge intensive mechanics and while for the Dragoon, keeping BoD up while dodging these mechanics can be easier due to the fact that we do not have cast times on our skills, for a Black Mage I am told it can be a total nightmare resulting in nothing but frustration and a headache. For example on the second boss of Nevereap I sometimes don't bother trying to keep BoD up because of how often I have to stop attacking the boss to run around picking up and carrying statues out of his aoe. It's just not practical. The first boss is somewhat difficult as well because of him disappearing for a time but that one isn't as bad. In Fractal Continuum I have seen BLMs have to choose between keeping up Enochian or dodging mechanics such as on the first boss. Several runs I have had BLMs who simply stood in his aoe so they could keep their rotation up. As I stated before I do not personally have my BLM up to 60 yet so I don't know first hand how difficult it actually is but I DO know that how difficult it is perceived to be will vary from person to person. While some may find it easy others may find it nerve racking and just use their 2.0 rotation instead.

I'm also interested in any arguments against this you may have. As in the bolded parts I have given reasons BLMs may not bother using Enochian or trying to keep it up. Why do you believe these are invalid?

[Lego3400]

And this kind of thinking is EXACTLY why Damage meters are against the TOS. All that matters is the boss dies and you have fun. Don't worry about anyone else.

... for the fear of being reported and banned because 3rd party program use, and antagonizing the player (even if you didn't mean to, people will report you to get you banned if you so much as sneeze in the general direction of their feelings to hurt them).

Yet WoW had damage meters for ~10 years, and that driven alot of people to not suck at their class because everyone will know, and they know they would be called out on it. That alone created drive to make people want to get better.

It also created a community of elitest pricks who require everyone to be overgeared before step foot into content suitable for their current iLevel. Wow's comunity is close to (if not actully) being outright toxic. Unless you have a core group of freinds or find one of the gems hiding in the trash, most people only care about numbers. We don't want that additude here.

[Archaell]

And this kind of thinking is EXACTLY why Damage meters are against the TOS. All that matters is the boss dies and you have fun. Don't worry about anyone else.

Damage meters are against the ToS because these are 3rd party software which is data-mining.

For the second part of your statement. How much fun are you going to have if the boss doesn't die? If the tank doesn't tank more than one mob. If the healer heals only the tank? Some people have fun while wiping and trolling - shouldn't they be allowed to have fun?

[Lego3400]

Damage meters are against the ToS because these are 3rd party software which is data-mining.

For the second part of your statement. How much fun are you going to have if the boss doesn't die? If the tank doesn't tank more than one mob. If the healer heals only the tank? Some people have fun while wiping and trolling - shouldn't they be allowed to have fun?

There is a huge diffrence between "failing" and "not doing well enough for someone else's arbitrary standards" No one will disagree trolls are bad. Nor will anyone agree wipeing all day is fun. But if you can down it, that's all that matters, not the actual numbers.

[Archaell]

There is a huge diffrence between "failing" and "not doing well enough for someone else's arbitrary standards" No one will disagree trolls are bad. Nor will anyone agree wipeing all day is fun. But if you can down it, that's all that matters, not the actual numbers.

My personal standard is a simple question: If the whole party performed at the level of the weakest link, would it be possible to progress? If no, the person has a lot of work to do.

We could take it even one step ahead. What if the whole group decreased their performance to 50% of the weakest link? I highly doubt it would be possible to have fun in such scenario when you just want your daily roulette bonus.

As long as the content gets cleared is a really weak and the most toxic attitude you can have. Because if the bad player had to carry someone who is half good as them... nothing would get cleared ever.

[CookieMonsta]

And this kind of thinking is EXACTLY why Damage meters are against the TOS. All that matters is the boss dies and you have fun. Don't worry about anyone else.



It also created a community of elitest pricks who require everyone to be overgeared before step foot into content suitable for their current iLevel. Wow's comunity is close to (if not actully) being outright toxic. Unless you have a core group of freinds or find one of the gems hiding in the trash, most people only care about numbers. We don't want that additude here.

Go do Alex Savage, then tell us about how much "fun" you had.
Damage meters allow DPS to be held accountable, something Tanks and healers have had to deal with since day 1.

[Lego3400]

Go do Alex Savage, then tell us about how much "fun" you had.
Damage meters allow DPS to be held accountable, something Tanks and healers have had to deal with since day 1.

You can hold them accountable if you die to some sort of enrage mechanics. Otherwise the fault isn't theres unless it was due to death. IF there's no enrage and everyone wipes, someone screwed something up and it wasn't the amount of damage output. Damage out put only tells you how fast the thing's gonna die. Not if you survive.