Why are low standards for dps acceptable?

[Rei_Fails]

At first low dps might not seem like a big issue, the things just die at slower rate, right? But the slow speed is actually making it harder for both the tank and healer. With bad dps the tank has to tank longer, which means more damage, which means the healer has to heal more, which means the healer and tank can dps less, which makes the run even slower. Basically one bad player is not just forcing others to the work, this person is also decreasing the performance of the whole team.

This is true, it does force people to work harder by having to carry under performers. I would argue more than that. An overwhelming majority of players are mediocre or worse at their roles, contributing the bare minimum and believing that to be okay or sufficient. It's across the board too, on DPS, Tanks and Healers. Each role acquires tools in their kits as they level, and many players ignore them or choose not to use them out of stubbornness or laziness.

Here's a snip from just a few minutes ago: http://imgur.com/xITWn4Y

I don't berate people for low DPS or remove them from the duty, I'm not perfect myself and have bad runs too, but A4 usually takes 4 min or less with good group, this took almost twice as long. Group DPS of 8 people was 4k, and I alone was over 30% of that. As much as I love winning parses against friends, this is depressing because I know this is pretty standard. Admittedly this is extra low today, but usually it's not much better. No one was new, and apart from the MNK, nobody was poorly geared. This is common in dungeons as well as Void Ark, which can be even worse since people half pay attention or barely contribute when there's so many people.

Apart from things taking significantly longer to do, it also has a negative impact on the state of the game as a whole, which few consider. A3S is testament to this. Mechanically it's not particularly hard, and there's plenty of guides now, DPS is the factor holding many back. As a result of the few clears, it'll end up nerfed to the ground, and future content is watered down and made easier and easier. There won't be any challenging content left in the game eventually and the main reason for this is much of player base is uninterested or unmotivated to improve or challenge themselves. 24man raids sit on the threshold of being just about difficult enough to prevent you from soloing or duoing it, and this is mostly through designing it to have mechanics that require x amount of bodies to be there.

It's not healthy for the game and I'm not against threads like this being made, a change is needed to keep the game fun and interesting in it's battle content.

[Zangetsu]

I did a lvl 50 dungeon the other day and got screamed at for telling a person that the weapon they had on was terribly under level and that was the reason they couldn't hold hate. They made comments about how this was their alt and they had level a 60 character so they knew what the were doing. They had all lvl 50, i115 armor and accessories on but the weapon was lvl 47, ilvl 49. They would not even try to understand ilvl after i tried to explain it to them. They just stood by " Im lvl 50, the weapon is 47 whats the problem!!?" We were in amdapor keep (hard).

[Zangetsu]

I feel like people get too much shit for telling others they are playing badly. I don't expect people in duty finder to play at savage level but don't be casting blizzard only on BLM. The fact the duty finder exists is why people lash back at you since you probably wont meet again. Duty finder has its pros and cons but this is a very irritating con. People are less tempted to lash back like that if you were stuck on the same server and they would most likely start learning to play properly sooner.

[Jeibird]

I'm not the only one who sees much of this community and yoshida's own viewpoint on damage parsers some time ago has a major problem in backwards thinking, and mentalities reflective of SJWs at the cost of leaving players ignorant

I can't believe I found this gem on this forum for this game. this is fate and its beautiful

"if you want someone to stop sucking immediately try not being a dick to them right away"

WHAT'S THIS ES JAY DUBYA BULLSHIT?!?!

[Ossom]

Honestly, who cares if they lash back. If you are completely underperforming and I mean :

1. Not going for a single positional.
2. Not using core skills (Enochian, Blood of the Dragon, DoTs, Defensive Cooldowns, Regens, Group Heals, Pets)
3. Not out dpsing the healer

I'm going to ask why that is, if its something along the lines of "I don't feel like it" or "I don't need to." Or something generally along the lines of the player knowing that they should and knowing why they should but not doing it. Then the player just wants to be carried by his team at this point. I'm going to requests that they perform adequately or I'm going to initiate a vote kick. If that vote kick fails, I'm going to just leave. I do not carry people who aren't willing to put in the effort. Even when I played the old crash bandicoot on my PS1 I had to put in some effort to beat the level. Nothings changed. You don't expect to get carried in a single player game, the case stays the same in an MMO.

Of course if the player doesn't have a strong understanding of their job then I will glady take the time to slow the run down to help them understand how they can better perform their duties. I will even link them to guides if they wish and I can explain the basics of pretty much any class to get DPS to a sufficient level if they are willing to listen.

[TheUltimateSeph]

They're talking about ingame gardening, which is pretty simple.

Oh duh. That does make so much more sense. Don't know why I didn't think of in game gardening. That does bring us to another issue though, that a large part of the problem is probably that people are less willing to put up with people not knowing things about the game they feel should be common sense, because they are already not having fun. And really if you're not having fun in the first place and just want to get in and out of the instance for your times as quick as possible why are you even playing?

[Ashkendor]

That does bring us to another issue though, that a large part of the problem is probably that people are less willing to put up with people not knowing things about the game they feel should be common sense, because they are already not having fun.

It's not that I'm necessarily not having fun the moment I arrive in the dungeon. Roulettes and things like Void Ark/Alex Normal can be fun, but it's heavily dependent on the party. Going in in a full premade and shredding the place, making stupidly big pulls, and generally clowning around? Really fun. Queueing with one friend and getting awesome DPS in DF that we just click with? Fun. Queueing with one friend and getting DPS that are undergeared but actually trying to put some hurt on? Fun. Getting newbies that are learning and are willing to listen to constructive criticism? Fun. Getting people that aren't even trying? No. This isn't fun at all. It just ends up giving me a backache from carrying dead weight through the Duty Finder. It makes me grumpy.

And really if you're not having fun in the first place and just want to get in and out of the instance for your times as quick as possible why are you even playing?

There's things I want to accomplish in the game, and in order to accomplish those things sometimes I have to do some stuff that's not necessarily what I want to be doing at any given time. I'm on my third Anima relic at this point, though I'll admit that it did start to wear on me this last week. I actually completely stopped doing Roulettes for a few days. Hell, I actually took a 2 day break from just about everything and caught up on some crafting and some of the big fish I hadn't landed yet. Tonight it's back to roulettes to cap Eso before the reset. I feel that my weekly tomes should always be capped no matter what. I should get a weekly drop and the upgrade mat from Void Ark. I should get the pages from Savage 1 and 2. Etc. Building my equipment up (even for less played classes) is fun to me, but sometimes I have to do not-so-fun stuff in order to accomplish that.

[Whiteroom]

And really if you're not having fun in the first place and just want to get in and out of the instance for your times as quick as possible why are you even playing?

Maybe people like to run more than one instance a night.

[TheUltimateSeph]

Okay I'm going to try to be as nice as possible with this one and think through everything before I post it. I'll do my best to make sense and write something cohesive but I'm only human so bear with me.

I want to address a couple things here, starting with my first post.

With how fast people can level now days thanks to how easy SE has made it to get to 60 it's really not that hard to understand how people can not be comfortable or all that knowledgeable about their classes end game skills when they first reach end game. Give them a few weeks to start learning and get comfortable with it. When I first hit 60 with my DRG I didn't even know the extra job quests for level 52-60 existed, and didn't find out about it for a couple weeks. Thankfully the person who told me was very nice about the whole thing and while keeping BoD up (which I'm told is like an easy version of Enochian *shudders*) isn't always fun or practical I do love seeing the extra dps I can put out with it now. With all the dodging mechanics in HW endgame I can see how some BLM would not even bother trying to use Enochian. But them who am I to speculate. >_< I'll have more to say when I get my BLM to 60.

You're really stretching it though if the implication is that you get no new skills for the entity of 50-60, which comes with an entire expansion, when previously you gained skills from your job NPC every 5 levels.At that point you're either severely tunnel visioning or you just didn't care for it (especially if it's going to the point of level 60, since this is the general range of the discussion). Not to mention the problem with the post you're referring to his that he basically coined knowing the fact that "you get new skills as you level" is elitism.

I mean there's benefit of the doubt, but there's even reasonable limits for that, nor was this example nessescarly relevant to the OP (where the problem was someone choosing not to use a skill and lowered their damage output as a result)

Ok with my first post I was trying to say that not everyone is comfortable with the rotations that are expected of them at end game, and that could have been one of the reasons the BLM the OP referred to didn't use Enochian. The example of myself and my own lack of skills upon reaching level 60 was perhaps off topic, I'll give you that. I was trying to explain another reason for people not using their skills that, while not directly related to the OPs situation, is related to the underlying issue as a whole.

In the end game dungeons such as Fractal Continuum and Neverreap, there are many dodge intensive mechanics and while for the Dragoon, keeping BoD up while dodging these mechanics can be easier due to the fact that we do not have cast times on our skills, for a Black Mage I am told it can be a total nightmare resulting in nothing but frustration and a headache. For example on the second boss of Nevereap I sometimes don't bother trying to keep BoD up because of how often I have to stop attacking the boss to run around picking up and carrying statues out of his aoe. It's just not practical. The first boss is somewhat difficult as well because of him disappearing for a time but that one isn't as bad. In Fractal Continuum I have seen BLMs have to choose between keeping up Enochian or dodging mechanics such as on the first boss. Several runs I have had BLMs who simply stood in his aoe so they could keep their rotation up. As I stated before I do not personally have my BLM up to 60 yet so I don't know first hand how difficult it actually is but I DO know that how difficult it is perceived to be will vary from person to person. While some may find it easy others may find it nerve racking and just use their 2.0 rotation instead.

In regards to me coining “ knowing the fact that "you get new skills as you level" is elitism.” this is not what I meant. Knowing that you get new skills is not elitism. Expecting others to know is. Expecting them to conform to your expectations for how a class should be played is Elitism. In this case, expecting the BLM to use Enochian. Knowing these quests existed and how to best play a class just makes you....more, intuitive, I guess.

Regarding the tic tac toe reference: Maybe I'm misinterpreting it or not understanding it so I'll just explain why I don't think it fits the situation. In tic tac toe there are clear rules for how the game is supposed to be played. One person uses one shape, usually an X, and the other uses another shape, usually an O. Each person will only use their assigned shape and will take turns filling in a 3x3 panel of boxes until either one person gets three across or it ends in a draw. The picture depicts three shapes being used and scribbles on part of the panel. This is clearly complete nonsense and the game cannot be played like this. In the case of the BLM the OP ran into however, even without the use of Enochian the game can still be played. The content is cleared, and everything can still get done. The only difference is how long it takes for the “game” (dungeon) to be completed. The level 60 dungeons can still be completed in a reasonable amount of time with people using only their 2.0 rotations.


I think that's all I wanted to say for now, except that for everything else with people slamming me for not having the skills at 60 or knowing that they existed, reading the patch notes, etc. I do apologize for my attitude in a lot of my responses. I have a tendency to feel like I'm unjustly being attacked in situations like that, especially with some of the responses I got and so I fire back without thinking it through and often come out sounding like an ass. It's just another one of those things I'm going to have to work on improving, along with arrogance and ignorance. I know I tried my best to be civil in this post and I hope I didn't say anything too offensive in it but I know there will still be people who find fault with practically everything I said. I won't be firing back at them anymore and I will do my best to view their responses with an open mind. I hope they can do the same for mine.

Sincerely,
Sorry for the book

[RiceisNice]

In regards to me coining “ knowing the fact that "you get new skills as you level" is elitism.” this is not what I meant. Knowing that you get new skills is not elitism. Expecting others to know is. Expecting them to conform to your expectations for how a class should be played is Elitism. In this case, expecting the BLM to use Enochian. Knowing these quests existed and how to best play a class just makes you....more, intuitive, I guess.

That's exactly my point. You've gone through levels 1-50 gaining new skills or traits every 2 levels, and a new skill from your job NPC every 5 levels. Why would 50-60 (which requires the purchase of an expansion mind you) be any different? You're practically saying that having any form of expectation for the basic concept of the game is considered elitism.