The new concept screenshot is a real-time in-game render!

[Shipp]

What are you trying to somehow say FFXIV is as cluttered as Wow's interface?

You and I both know that even in battle, in a party, with a lev screen up it's less cluttered still.

FFXIV's toolbar is freaking horrible. With UI add-ons, you can fully customize the width, height, how much buffer space is between the buttons, how thick the borders should be, the shape of the buttons, whether you want a portrait for party frames, whether you want to show Mana and energy for other players, whether you want absolutely no toolbars whatsoever because you can just hide them and have them keybound and memorized, whether you want damage to show up on the screen or just in the combat log, which way said damage scrolls on the screen, how fast it scrolls, if it arcs out or goes in a straight line or is over the target's head, the color of the scrolling combat numbers, whether they have the ability/spell icon next to them, how large they should be, whether you want crits colored another way or larger than the rest, or even showing up in their own set area... How many mobs should the debuff timer track, how many buffs will show up on your screen, whether to consolidate all buffs into one box that you can mouseover and then see them, etc, etc.

You can show as little or as much as you want. I could have a UI which shows nothing but the chat log if I wanted, and even then, I could get rid of that. This argument about XIV's UI looking better when the toolbar isn't even brought up in that picture is foolish. I much prefer Lavani's UI screenshot, because it's -fully- customizable.

Also, when talking to an NPC and they say something in the chat-log AND that little box that pops up in the middle of the screen that you can't resize... yeah. It looks bad, especially since it only shows a few lines of text instead of just reading it all in the chat log. Why is it even there when we already have a chat log? It's useless. It's showing the exact same information twice and unnecessarily clutters the screen.

[Synfrag]

Ironic. You countered with a screenshot which is outside of combat, not in a party, and not in a timed instance.

Well I wasn't going to form a party and enter Darkhold just to take a screen shot. I don't keep SS on hand sorry.

[Synfrag]

This is you mis-using add-ons. When I started playing WoW, I played with no add-ons. Then, when I became frustrated with being unable to relate my performance to anything else, I installed recount. Then, when I decided I could react better to bosses with timer displays, I installed DBM. When I had trouble keeping my threat in check, I installed something to monitor my threat. They're tools, and you get the ones you need.

Your comments regarding balance are an issue the Devs would have to be aware of. The WoW dev team decided to embrace add-ons at the highest level content, to extend the range of skill and challenge at the top end, while leaving dungeons to be balanced without expecting add-ons. Even then, there is grey area, as I expect Firelands could be managed without healer add-ons, just not heroic Firelands. Still, if the Dev team felt that the FF XIV playerbase wants the game to be balanced without add-ons, then it can be balanced so they aren't expected or needed.

To address a couple of the other things you have said as well:
- You said that things like decursive will be unfair to controller users. This isn't really true, as controller users have other options for their add-ons. Things like bumpers to shortcut to party selection for healing, or in this example, simply holding L2 or something to shortcut a spell like Remove Curse. There's no reason that add-ons can't be made to take advantage of controller input methods; they simply don't map over 1:1.
- You said that you can't stand most of the WoW add-ons, but are forced to use them. This is simply untrue. Once I learned to manage my threat, I could turn my Omen meter off. Once I brought my dps up to an acceptable level, I hid my recount damage meter. Having Deadly Boss Mods on is hardly an information overflow, and even that isn't absolutely required. You could totally get through fights just listening to raid communication, skill, and timing memory if you cared to put that much effort into it. If you don't care that much, then I guess you'd prefer having the raid interfaces available to you. It's always an option, and I doubt the Dev team would start balancing to require add-ons, considering how vocal those against this have been.
- No matter how much you claim that add-ons will deter someone from learning there class, it is impossible to dispute the fact that most add-ons improve someone's understanding of the class. Threat meters teach you what is an is not appropriate for skill timing, and most of all, dps meters allow you to gauge your overall efficiency, and if and where you need to improve. The feedback allows players to experiment with different rotations or ideas and actually see if it was effective. You will note that players already do this with parsers outside of the game because it is so important. Whatever harm is done by those add-ons that tell you what spell to cast is vastly outweighed by the benefits of instant feedback and learning through playing offered by other add-ons. In terms of being good or bad for player learning, you can't say to remove all of them just because of the few add-ons that give you your rotations.

You have some good points and I value your response. Some of these things are true in regards to players learning their classes if they choose to use them for that manner. In that case I suppose you could count it as proper use but the fact is, most people do not use add-ons to improve their skill save for recount maybe.

I'm only going off of my experience and in my experience even people who have been playing for a long time still have no idea why things happen when asked about them. I'm not in any way saying this is everyone but it is a large portion. Again I have nothing against UI mods that help organize and customize your layout. There is nothing wrong with recount or DMG meters, people will be dicks about dealing damage or your gear regardless.

It is simply my opinion that active add-ons should not be necessary or allowed. It keeps a level playing field for all of the players and keeps the focus on what the boss your fighting is doing not on when you can drop your next big nuke. When I play WoW I'm staring at where my mage nuggets pop ups are or what recount is saying instead of what is going on around me. It's just not fun, effective, but not fun.

[Zenaku]

Partying with a lot of players and most of them are WoW players they can't heal they don't know where to stand it sad that you need addon just to even play a game. Healers would stand there 5mins and then cure when someone is dead pretty much. Or if anything they would curega for Lols o.O this is the issue with Addon it make players lazy and they can't play a game without something telling you what to do.

But w/e if people want addon then w/e but at the end that type of addon is what i dislike. I had a wow friend come over he play wow for 4+years and he had to download all the addon he used just to play with me it's sound how he can't play without addon.

I understand addon like ArkInventory,Carbonite but addon that tell you how to play your class is where i say No thanks. But whatever it better having someone play with addon and do there dam job then having someone not heal you because they don't know how to play i guess that the good part of it all lol.

[Shipp]

Partying with a lot of players and most of them are WoW players they can't heal they don't know where to stand it sad that you need addon just to even play a game. Healers would stand there 5mins and then cure when someone is dead pretty much. Or if anything they would curega for Lols o.O this is the issue with Addon it make players lazy and they can't play a game without something telling you what to do.

But w/e if people want addon then w/e but at the end that type of addon is what i dislike. I had a wow friend come over he play wow for 4+years and he had to download all the addon he used just to play with me it's sound how he can't play without addon.

I understand addon like ArkInventory,Carbonite but addon that tell you how to play your class is where i say No thanks. But whatever it better having someone play with addon and do there dam job then having someone not heal you because they don't know how to play i guess that the good part of it all lol.

And tell me what these addons are that will tell a 100% new player what button to hit, what spell to cast, etc. I'd really like to hear it. You can keep repeating yourself over and over after every post explaining how you're wrong, it doesn't change the fact that you're still wrong.

[Tiraelina]

Go to http://www.curse.com/ i sure you find a lot that tell you what Spell to use next and what to do next i'm sure you find a few or maybe more. Stop saying i'm wrong when a lot of people feel the same way you like addon? that fine but it's not needed not that type of addon -.-

and i am going to go on repeating to other understand that addon in that way should not be allow i can care less about the others like the few i said.

All I'm seeing is someone that doesn't know what everyone else is talking about and trying to fit in. Healing addons consist of Grid/Clique combined with mouseover cast macros that every game should have. The only thing you are doing is complaining bad players are bad and trying to tag the issue onto WoW.

[Shipp]

All I'm seeing is someone that doesn't know what everyone else is talking about and trying to fit in. Healing addons consist of Grid/Clique combined with mouseover cast macros that every game should have. The only thing you are doing is complaining bad players are bad and trying to tag the issue onto WoW.

This. Zen, if you cannot tell me which addon you are referring to, then I'm calling your bluff and stating that you don't know what you're talking about. If these adds that play the game for someone are so rampant in WoW then you should have no problem telling me which addons they are. You aren't doing that, because you're full of crap.

[Chain]

Wrong!

Add-ons have the complete power to destroy a game without any abuse or misuse. Exactly as they have in WoW. There are thousands of players who do not understand how to play their class in WoW without add-ons. I am one of them. I was convinced into playing wow by co-workers and so the first thing I did was copy a friends add-on profile and have him show me what to do. When the game gets patched and it breaks my add-ons I have no clue if someone is cursed or if my Fingers of Frost are up and what have you. Add-ons that tell you what to do next after a skill only add to the lack of knowledge in how to properly use your class.

This is detrimental to the game no matter how you spin it. If we end up with shortcut add-ons like decursive for example (I'm sure there are better examples) it's all over. I am absolutely fine with things like UI skins, CD timers, parsers (AKA DPS meters) and non-altering add-ons. The second you throw in shortcut add-ons you break FFXIV. Even if, only for the simple fact that at leas 1/2 the population will be playing with a controller and targeting a shortcut will be nearly impossible.

Shipp actually illustrate my point perfectly with "You claim your GF has healed without any healing addons. This is simply ridiculous. No serious raid healer is not going to have a healing addon." If the game requires a 3rd party add-on in order to fulfill your task then it is broken, end of story.

On top of that comes serious balance issues and the result of inaccurate game balance is Elite mobs with 500k HP and no tactical strategy required to beat them. There is no other way around it besides making everything generic like Blizzard has done. Because the field is so vastly split due to which add-ons are used and by whom that the designers have to compensate with simplicity and numbers e.g. more trash mobs, higher HP and less or no visual clues.

Personally I cannot stand most of the WoW add-ons on my screen. They are designed by amateurs with literally no understanding of aesthetics or visual design and they clutter up your screen so bad that all you see is add-ons and nothing in the game. But, because WoW is such a cluster**** of a game, I have to use them. There is no choice and therefore I am forced to live with an even uglier version of an already ugly game.

Yes, some are great to have and I'm not completely against them as a whole but to say that there is nothing negative about them is absolutely ignorant.

Didn't read.

[Zenaku]

This. Zen, if you cannot tell me which addon you are referring to, then I'm calling your bluff and stating that you don't know what you're talking about. If these adds that play the game for someone are so rampant in WoW then you should have no problem telling me which addons they are. You aren't doing that, because you're full of crap.

So you don't know about addons that tell you which spell to use next? Ok then i be full of **** i don't mind if you don't believe me.

Anyways i had enough with this topic talking to you people is like talking to the wall and seeing how this topic getting out of topic there no need to talk in it anymore.

[Aradon]

Personally I rather dislike add-ons that give too much gameplay signals. I only really want things for damage feedback and probably something like DBM for awareness just because it smooths out gameplay and cuts down on extra Vent noise. Shortcut/macro add-ons are nice, but not really necessary. I think they're worth the potential damage to allow shortcut usage in add-ons, but I would heavily argue that they're definitely not enough to bar all add-ons period. I think the gist of everything I've said to this point can be summed up in this opinion:

The damage done by imbalance from add-ons is far outweighed by the extreme value of instant feedback from damage meters and other resources offered by add-ons. The number of players who misuse add-ons and fail to learn their class ought to be smaller than those who learn/understand their class better due to improved feedback and UIs.


I think there are some legitimate concerns about balancing, and I'm sure add-ons will be misused, but the overall impact of the game should be positive, and for those players who opt for heavy add-on usage as a preference, an overwhelming positive.

(For what it's worth, WoW currently tells you when to cast many spells that are buffed from procs naturally, without add-ons. It's all "fingers of frost! gogo ice lance!" and then you get to decide whether the program's right or not. I just thought that'd be of interest here.)