Another perfectly reasonable AST idea

[Aloise]

As if there aren't enough suggestions out there.

I've been playing AST since 3.0 dropped, etc. I have a decent understanding of how the job works.

The most annoying thing to me is how Nocturnal Sect doesn't synergize nearly as well with an AST's toolkit as Diurnal does. With Diurnal, you get absolutely insane HoTs using Time Dilation and Celestial Opposition. It's ridiculous. Time extending a shield, on the other hand, does very little. And since DS shields overwrite SCH shields, you will NEVER have a DS AST and a SCH in the same full party. So I'm looking at DS as a replacement to a SCH. You also lose the fairy, which from a buffing perspective isn't a terribly big deal because cards more than make up for it. Here are some things you lose:

• An absolutely free 300 potency cure that you don't even have to think about every GCD
• Strong shield spreading through Deployment
• A Sacred Soil you can set and forget
• E4E
• Aetherflow for endless MP

All in all, your shielding and healing ability is pretty gimped in favor of a slightly stronger instant cast shield, and somewhat decent buffs. Not a good tradeoff in my mind. So here's an idea I've been cooking up over a few months, to give AST more options than "on par with WHM or a mediocre at best SCH"

1. Make Nocturnal Sect Cleric Stance with AST extras

• All cards drawn become Reversed [Card], which can only be played on enemies. Time Dilation and Celestial Opposition affect these buffs.

• Reversed Bole could give a very small percent Vuln Up for a few seconds (like Trick Attack but weaker and shorter)
• Reversed Balance a small and short Damage Down (weaker than Disable)
• Arrow, Slow
• Spear, Heavy or something. Hell if I know.
• Spire/Ewer, maybe return TP/MP on hit. Maybe Spire has a chance to paralyze enemies while active (it's a lightning bolt, right?)

These effects probably aren't the best and I don't like giving potencies because I have no idea what's broken and not, but there's plenty of room to fiddle around with this thought.

1. Make not being in a stance useful

As it stands right now, there is absolutely no reason EVER to not be in a stance. This bothers me more than it should, since multiple jobs now have mandatory stances. But if NS is nixed in favor of becoming a DPS stance, then having nostance should still people a reason to go WHM/AST. I've had a couple of different thoughts, but none that I'm absolutely sold on. Here are a few:

• Reduce card game cooldowns when not in a stance. This would let you have more card uptime, and maybe you could afford to slap a Bole on your tank instead of burning it for Enhanced or discarding it because you don't want to waste your Expanded. But cards are still RNG, and the chance of more uptime doesn't guarantee you'll have anything that matches SCH's mitigation abilities.
• Allow Royal Roads to be stacked, up to 2. This would absolutely completely break some cards, but it would also make some combinations more useful (has anyone actually ever played an Expanded Spire?)
• Give Royal Road its own healing based on which one is used. Enhanced cures kinda strongly and gives a shield equaling heals, Extended gives a(nother) HoT, and Expanded gives an AoE. This would encourage you to play cards on tanks more often for the extra heals, but would overheal on pretty much anyone else, and its usefulness would be quite situational.

• One new cooldown that lets you Spread and play a single card onto a party member. It's essentially an extra Spread, but since people can only have one card buff active, it wouldn't be used willy-nilly, but more to store Boles on tanks for busters or Ewers on Bards for when they sing, etc.

None of these really stick with me though, because they're all still RNG dependent at their core, and RNG doesn't go all that well with progression. With the loss of Aspected heals and Collective Unconscious, stanceless would need something that really packs a kick to make it useful.

I'm not upset with AST's healing ability at all. If anything, I think Diurnal AST is too strong compared to WHM and should be toned back a bit. As a HoT healer goes, it's probably the best because of TD/CO. As a burst healer, Essential Dignity is a better panic button than Tetragrammation, and Lightspeed lets you pump out some good AoE heals on the move, though Cure III still wins out for that.

By and large, it's Nocturnal Sect that lets me down. I feel far more restricted using it than DS (Slower DPS, TD and CO have less value, mildly better heals that few would benefit from). The buffs are really nice, but the benefits of having a scholar seem much better than having a Noct AST. I'm running on fumes here, so I'll end the wall of text and let the discussion commence.

At the heart of it all, I really just want AST to have the option of (even) better buffing at the cost of some healing potential, or feel more unique beyond "Hit Draw when it's up, and play it if you can".

[Phileas]

For next time, you can bypass the 1000 character limit by posting something and editing the post and adding the rest of the text .

As for AST, I cannot comment as I'm not yet 60 xD

[FeliAiko]

Had a similar cards idea to yours once. Another one I had recently was to divide the cards across the two sects. So for example, Bole/Arrow for Diurnal and Spear/Balance for Nocturnal. Ewer/Spire would be available for both.

[Cheibriados]

Had a similar cards idea to yours once. Another one I had recently was to divide the cards across the two sects. So for example, Bole/Arrow for Diurnal and Spear/Balance for Nocturnal. Ewer/Spire would be available for both.

The only problem with that is that it would make Noct stance something you're forced to use even though you're severely limiting yourself.

[Kabzy]

You've never actually raided as a SCH, have you?

[FeliAiko]

The only problem with that is that it would make Noct stance something you're forced to use even though you're severely limiting yourself.

That's true and something I also considered. With Balance being the best card having it Sect-specific would force players into running that Sect all the time. So either Balance changes or the concept gets adjusted accordingly.

You've never actually raided as a SCH, have you?

If that was directed at me, then I have, yes. Now was there a point you were trying to make?

[TatoRazzino]

This reverse card idea is nice, but I don't think it should be tied to sect. We could get another deck in the future, with a Draw II skill that would read from a different kind of arcanum.

As for the issues with Nocturnal Sect, there is a few things that people should take into consideration:

1) Nocturnal Sect is insanely strong in PvP;
2) When compared to SCH, it's weaker in mitigation, in shielding and in DPS at 60, but it's actually quite competitive at level 50 content. If you analyze everything, the damage toolkit is fairly simple to use and it's pretty strong when you realize that Malefic has almost double the potency of Ruin/Ruin II; the shielding is stronger when crits are not happening; AST doesn't have anything like Sacred Soil at 50, but they can use Benefic II/Helios to heal through damage, while SCH only gets Emergency Tactics after level 50.

Anyway, they're quite similar and competitive at level 50, and this is my point: there's absolutely no reason to believe that Nocturnal Sect is anything beyond a situational stance - just like Fists of Earth or Fists of Wind, or even Topaz Carbuncle/Titan-Egi, all situational things used while soloing or in very specific duties.

Final Fantasy XIV is a raid oriented game, we can agree to that, but there are people who enjoy doing PvP and several spells/skills are there to serve this kind of playstyle. Think about Feint (LNC/DRG) or Haymaker (PGL/MNK) or Sleep and Lethargy (THM/BLM); status effects like Bind, which THM/BLM, SMN, ARC/BRD and MCH have are almost useless in PvE except for T7 so far, but are very useful in PvP. Nocturnal can be a PvP stance or something purely situational, used to do level 50 content in DF.

It sounds like a silly point, but we shouldn't forget that a lot of people started playing this game in Heavensward and have not done any of the 2.x content. They may choose to do so using the Duty Finder or setting up a new player static or even a pug PF group to do 2.x content without resorting to being carried by an unsynced group. And they may want/have to do it as a WHM/AST combo, which is perfectly fine for that kind of content.

Also, HW content, like primals (Ravana EX, Bismarck EX and Thordan EX), Alexander (Normal mode) and Void Ark, are easily done in Nocturnal Sect.

The only issue comes with Alex Savage. Well, it's really hard to say there's a problem with a stance that is only an issue in hardcore endgame content. And the issue is not about the healing capabilities themselves, but about the SCH DPS capabilities. This is something that will hardly change if they redesign Nocturnal Sect in any way, because this is not an issue related to healing, but something related to the fact that SCH comes from a DPS class, with a wider DPS toolkit and better MP management. The fairy helps with healing, we all know that, but it's being overestimated in several ways.

In my opinion, they should allow AST to change Sects in combat, because that will make all the problems go away. If they make it that you can’t stack your own regens and shields, it’s not going to break the game. Then we’ll be something unique, with two healing styles that can be swapped in combat, and all this mini-WHM/mini-SCH crap will end, since we won’t be locked in anything. Also, they should remove the +5% healing potency buff and make Nocturnal have the same +5% attack speed buff that Diurnal has. ROG/NIN’s venoms work exactly the same in their self buff and they only change special effects from skills, so having two instances that give the same permanent buff is not something new to the game.

[LegoTechnic]

Whenever I see a thread with "perfectly reasonable", I feel it's the same as seeing a party finder group with "sureclear".

[Aloise]

You've never actually raided as a SCH, have you?

No. I've raided as a Noct AST and with multiple SCH's who are always on top of their game and know what's going on. I'm quite familiar with the tools because I have a pocket SCH when I tank, and we work out how to do our best as a pair. SCH was designed from the ground up to mitigate; AST was not. It's not rocket surgery to see that SCH's kit is far better for that role.

A lot of things

I've PvPed as Noct AST a handful of times in the drought before 3.1 when I really didn't want to get Neverreap again. You're right, it is extremely powerful. I'm not all that knowledgeable on PvP though, but my thought is that PvP would need a lot of tweaking to be a well-balanced experience.

I do agree that they're more equivalent in 2.X content, but I don't think that should be a major contributing factor when it comes to discussing its balance. It's nice, but AST is a HW job, so talking about its usefulness in ARR seems a bit tangential to me. I doubt many people are going to hit HW specifically because they want to heal ARR content as an AST and as no other healing job, and the only way they'd get non-faceroll content otherwise is by doing min ilvl sync.

As far as progression goes, SCH DPS is definitely an important factor, but AST could have the ability to contribute in a harder to calculate way. An AoE balance is an incredible boon, but it's not as easy to calculate how that contributes to the raid's DPS as it is to look at a SCH's potencies. I'm sure it's doable, but as it stands right now, your raidwide DPS contribution comes from having an Expanded Balance Spread at the start of the pull. Beyond that, you're stuck with a weaker WHM for DPS and RNG for your other contributions, including enough MP regen to keep yourself on track with WHM. If healer DPS is truly a problem, having the equivalent of an Expanded card without needing to burn a Spire or Ewer would significantly increase the frequency of cards played and boost raid damage more. An AST feeding one person cards is great for their personal DPS, but this way they could increase their raidwide contribution without having to wait ages for a Balance or Arrow.

As far as overestimating the fairy goes, you're probably right. I know fairy heals aren't as strong as SCH heals, but even if your fairy is set to manual and you never use a single pet ability, it's going to ease your healing burden because it will always be healing.

I probably forgot to address some things but oh well.

Whenever I see a thread with "perfectly reasonable", I feel it's the same as seeing a party finder group with "sureclear".

I was poking fun at myself, because I'm aware it doesn't resemble anything close to balanced, proper, or reasonable. I just wanna kick my ideas around a bit.

[TatoRazzino]

As far as progression goes, SCH DPS is definitely an important factor, but AST could have the ability to contribute in a harder to calculate way. An AoE balance is an incredible boon, but it's not as easy to calculate how that contributes to the raid's DPS as it is to look at a SCH's potencies. I'm sure it's doable, but as it stands right now, your raidwide DPS contribution comes from having an Expanded Balance Spread at the start of the pull. Beyond that, you're stuck with a weaker WHM for DPS and RNG for your other contributions, including enough MP regen to keep yourself on track with WHM. If healer DPS is truly a problem, having the equivalent of an Expanded card without needing to burn a Spire or Ewer would significantly increase the frequency of cards played and boost raid damage more. An AST feeding one person cards is great for their personal DPS, but this way they could increase their raidwide contribution without having to wait ages for a Balance or Arrow.

You're underestimating the card system as a whole. All cards contribute to DPS in different ways, and some of them are not obvious. Drawing Ewers and Spires takes the refresh burden away from BRD/MCH, which increases overall DPS for two reasons: 1) they don't have to sacrifice their personal DPS to play songs/activate the refresh mode for turrets; and 2) BRDs can use that MP to play Foe Requiem for longer. Boles can increase DPS in several ways: 1) the most obvious is your MT dropping tank stance for that duration, which will increase DPS output; 2) you can go into Cleric Stance and use your DoTs, which are powerful and bypass accuracy checks; 3) your co-healer can stay in Cleric for a longer time, adding more DPS; and 4) you can conserve MP, which helps with the refreshing issues. The Spear card is useful in many ways, specially if you have a NIN or MCH in your group; if you don't, you can use it to double the amount of time your next card will stay on. Utility increases overall DPS, buffing specific party members increases their personal DPS (which increases overall DPS). It's a huge mistake to think that only an AoE Balance or Arrow will do the trick; use an Extended Arrow in your BLM at the pull, and you'll do more for him in their opener than Selene will do for them in the whole fight. Feed your MNK with a Balance and increase it for 15s, and notice the difference in the boss HP percentage. It's tangible and you can feel the difference if you pay attention to what you're doing. When I don't play AST and go WHM instead in fights like Thordan EX, for example, I notice a 3% difference in the boss HP in the splits. That's how strong the cards are.

My point about the tookit pre-level 60 was not to argue its balance, but to point out a situational use. SE doesn't need any reason beyond that to choose not to change anything about Nocturnal Sect. Like I said in my original reply, there are several situational stances/spells/skills that are only used in few places or in PvP. SE can simply state that they never intended a high end use of Nocturnal Sect and that will be it.

Also, there are A4S clears with Nocturnal AST, and that fight is arguably the only one that actually requires heavy shielding. My point is: using SCH to point out things about Nocturnal Sect is not going to take us anywhere.

During 2.X progression groups had one spot locked for BRD among the DPS jobs, and one of the melee and one of the casters were going to be locked out no matter what. That happened because BRD was the only DPS/support job that existed; SCH is currently the only healer job that has an actual DPS toolkit (not only DPS spells/skills, but a resource management system), which means it's the only job that can perform well as an off-healer. The same thing can be said about WAR: it's the only tank made to work well as an off-tank. They'll not nerf WAR/SCH, and they won't buff PLD/DRK or WHM/AST to become closer to what WAR/SCH can do. We'll have to wait for the next off-tank/off-healer oriented job to be launched. Either that or SE will start designing fights that require only one tank/one healer; remember T5 and T9? A lot of groups simply ran it with PLD only, because a second tank was not needed. The smart choice for those fights wasn't WAR (and I doubt it would be now). If you need a solo healer, you'll either choose WHM or AST, with regens, for progression. Or they could simply design fights that require two healers actually healing. In those contexts, you'll prolly see more WHM/ASTs, and SCH may be left out. In a similar way, fights that would require two tanks using tank stance at the same time for long periods of time may see more PLD/DRK combos. Then we'll see threads crying about WAR/SCH and so on.