Things currently wrong with frontlines that the community would like to see fixed

[Kyani]

Anyways, RE: Astrologian vs Scholar -

The problem with your post is that healers are essentially tanks in Frontlines, so which ever one has the best ability to fulfill their specific role (an excellent tank and healer combo) is the one that would widely be considered the best

...

Besides that, the argument that "AST can't heal as well as the other two" simply isn't using it correctly.

Okay, coming back to you as a Scholar main:

- Lustrate is the best PvP heal, bar none - it's not even particularly close (Have you ever tried pressing it?) It's as much effective healing as a big heal , except Scholar can hold up to 9 of them before getting into a fight.. and it's off the GCD, so you can stack it with Adlo to outmuscle even Synastry'd Benefic IIs. It's a ridiculous amount of healing, while simiultaneously being more flexible/granular than WHM or AST's equivalents.

- As far as AoE, Indomitability is an instant, OGCD Medica, which can be similarly woven into your AoE healing. Indom is a fantastic amount of raw healing if your team's close enough to make good use of it, and synergizes well with the very powerful Roused Whispering Dawn (which is basically an AoE Regen).

- Adlo is a tiny bit worse than Noct Benefic in a stand-and-cast engagement, but significantly better than anything else you could be spending a GCD on thanks to Emergency Tactics turning it into Actual Cure II if necessary. Swift Adlo -> Lustrate -> Lustrate is a more flexible version of Noct Benefic -> Essential Dignity in 99% of scenarios as well.

- With Field Commander gear, Scholar can actually do a relevant amount of DPS. Energy Drain + Ruin II do about 700 damage combined, which isn't amazing, but it's all either instant or OGCD (noticing a pattern?) "free" extra damage to secure burst on a healer or high/fever.

- Aura Blast is really good. This one shouldn't need an explanation, it's the best ability of its kind for clearing people off of a node-ledge.

[TheWaywardWind]

Anyways, RE: Astrologian vs Scholar -



Okay, coming back to you as a Scholar main:

1) Your analysis of Lustrate is fine, except you're solely examining the few instances in which you can get that off. And besides, with the shield counted from Aspected Benefic, the healing is just as much as Lustrate. And it's not limited to the occasional and AT BEST 9 casts lustrate. Have you actually USED it? Using the best case scenario for lustrate is a serious push of Scholar's capabilities. Also synastry'd Benefic IIs + Aspected Benefics are stronger than your Adlo + Lustrate combo. Sorry if this hurts.

2) You're arguments are contradicting themselves. You either have 9 lustrates or less than that if you choose to indomitability. You're making it seem as if you can have both, which you can, since Indom costs an Aetherflow stack. The difference is that Astrologian doesn't have to sacrifice since its casts are essentially limitless - limited only by how much MP you have.

PLUS, you have the option between shields and heals, all of which can be buffed at any time with Synastry. Scholar does not have this.

-Adlo is worse potency wise, AND it has a cast time. Nocturnal Benefic does not have this. And you need to use an ability to give you a Cure II, Astro is free to cast theirs at any time they want. ET down? Sorry, shit out of luck. Meanwhile AST is has unlimited stronger shields, a Cure II, and essential dignity (the first two of which can be buffed.) Scholar also does not have this ease.

3) lol. Cards buffing others > potentially 700 damage combined. Plus, you're also going to spend an Aetherflow stack doing that. Meaning, again, you're limited in your choices. You cannot have it all.

4) Retrogradation still beats in the utility category. Heals, deals damage, removes one detriment from party AND removes one buff from enemies. It's easiest the best unique healer ability, bar none.

You're free to think as you like, but all of your arguments stand on their own. You keep trying to argue specific instances which combined cannot happen. You cannot have 9 lustrates if you're using one on Indom and Energy Drain. Meanwhile, AST CAN have it all.

Your arguments are essentially, "Scholar is really good! ...if these specifics things happen under these conditions and you don't do anything else. Astro is not nearly as limited.

[Caelum_Dragguell]

Keep in mind I'm referring almost solely to a 72 man match. Not 24 man and not Wolves Den, those are completely different strategically and also have way different optimal compositions. I'm also speaking from the perspective, not of a pre made match but of one where all of your team mates or the vast majority solo queue, a more disorganized front lines experience.

[Dimitrii]

@ Kyani

I don't disagree with your point, melees are better capable of inflicting instantaneous damage in between burst cooldowns than summoner but that's simply the price summoner pays for being able to dish out damage (albeit passively) on multiple targets simultaneously as opposed to the melee who are only affecting that one target. What are you trying to get at with that point though? That summoners should get more potent attacks to use in between bursts? Or that this fact alone is enough to warrant the ability for smn to burst with its unmatched unsurpassed mobility and range compared to the other jobs, even jobs within its own class?

In large scale battles the melee will be able to perform their weaponskill rotations while they wait for their cooldowns but this comes with the price of being exposed to potentially getting stunlocked by opposing enemies and subsequently killed the longer they stay engaged. Summoner meanwhile can just sit back safely tossing their dots from afar biding their time for their burst to be available again. It is soooo much easier to protect your battle high/fever as smn like this. Also those dots may not provide instantaneous dmg but they still do pressure the enemy heals if not passively. The dmg they inflict cannot always be ignored if the number of dots afflicted on the party is amplified by multiple summoners to the point where medica II/regen alone wont be sufficient to negate the dmg (especially with medica 2 not stacking anymore like in the early secure days). Lots of ppl view the purify recast reduction as an indirect smn nerf because of this.

[Kyani]

1): - Benefic II + Aspected Benefic is 2 global cooldowns, not one. In a unfavorable comparison (Scholar uses Adlo -> Lustrate -> Lustrate, but not a second Adlo, is not under the effect of Dispersion or Fey Illumination, and Eos does not heal the same target.), Scholar's 1800 potency loses out to Astrologian's 1901 (312.5 + 125 + 406.25 + 1058). With Dispersion alone, Scholar pulls back ahead (1920 vs 1901).

For a single-GCD comparison, though? Synastry Benefic 2 is 630 potency, modified to 756 by +20% healing.. increased by 40% to 1058 on the single Synastry target. Which has to be in your party. This is less than the 600+600 (1200) Adloquium + Lustrate provides in the same global cooldown. This can additionally be used across multiple targets, or on targets not in your group, both of which are very relevant to triage healing.

2) You have (at best) 9 instantly accessible Aetherflow charges. It is not difficult to roll into important fights with 6 (Aetherflow + Dispersion), and many times you can easily hit 9 or 12 in a prolonged fight. Using one on Indomitability is a direct improvement to Lustrate, because it is healing for more raw health among affected players, such that it is almost always correct to use Indomitability even when triage healing your own group. Shielding vs Healing isn't really a choice, either - unless you're trying to heal a DRK with Living Dead up, shields are significantly better than heals on focused targets in all but the most stringent edge cases.

Additionally, you seem to be ignoring Astrologian's hard limit on casts - it can cast one spell every global cooldown, with only two exceptions to this rule - ED and Retrogradation. Scholar is not tightly bound to this rule when its cooldowns are active, allowing it to get off as many as three heals in the same global cooldown even without Eos. This allows it to match even White Mage in short bursts - Indom + Swiftcast Succor + Lustrate on a focused target is something that Astrologian has absolutely no analogue to, and White Mage needs Cure III to see a similar single-GCD effect.

3) Cards are and have always been RNG. Balance is fantastic, as always, but it's also the only one of those cards which affects burst in any way. Now, Astrologian's offensive utility is better than Scholar's, but you didn't even think to mention that - Celestial Opposition and Stella are both fantastic tools compared to Scholar's native options, and most of Astrologian's cards have some sort of useful impact in battle - but only Balance actually provides burst pressure in itself.

It is absolutely true, however, that using Energy Drain reduces your healing throughput - but it can be worth the loss of Lustrate to remove an enemy AST or WHM from the fight! It's one of the few options in Scholar's toolkit - Scholar has the weakest native toolbox of the three healers by far, and I will never argue that point.

4) No. Retrogradation is a slightly souped-up combination of Assize and Fey Caress, whose unique trait is sometimes removing an important buff from someone close to you. How often do you actually remove a key buff from someone with it? Because I get knockdown value out of Aura Blast in easily 80% of my matches. Retro is probably actually the worst of the 3 healer special abilities - White Mage would barely function against melee without Sacred Prism.

But hey, what do I know? Maybe i'm just getting carried by Astrologians.

[xxczx]

Retro is probably actually the worst of the 3 healer special abilities

Did you read the tooltip wrong brah?

Love seeing some unprotected SCH and wiping their AF stacks

[Kyani]

Did you read the tooltip wrong brah?

Love seeing some unprotected SCH and wiping their AF stacks

Yeah? The upper bound of Retro isn't all that high - you'll strip a buff off of half a dozen players, but the stars have to align for it to strip multiple priority buffs, even against Scholar (succor, deployed e4e, regen, WD/Illu).

Compared to the high end of Sacred Prism (tank 5 melee as a WHM) or Aura Blast (DIRECTLY WINNING THE GAME), it's really not all that exciting. How often do you say to yourself "Man, we totally won that fight because of Retro's dispel!"?

[xxczx]

Yeah? The upper bound of Retro isn't all that high - you'll strip a buff off of half a dozen players, but the stars have to align for it to strip multiple priority buffs, even against Scholar (succor, deployed e4e, regen, WD/Illu).

Compared to the high end of Sacred Prism (tank 5 melee as a WHM) or Aura Blast (DIRECTLY WINNING THE GAME), it's really not all that exciting. How often do you say to yourself "Man, we totally won that fight because of Retro's dispel!"?

You're comparing it directly to healer PvP skills as if it was 1 vs. 8.

The fact remains there is not ONE skill in the game that heals, gives damage, removes one debuff and removes one buff. If I needed a pushback, I'd ask the many classes that already have this, same for damage reduction because people seem to think tanks are only there for the VIT buff amiright? I am not saying Prism or Blast is shit, they are good skills but Retro gives so much CC on such a short cooldown. If you find yourself targeted too much to be using Sacred Prism/Aura Blast on cooldown or else you'd die, you might need to rethink your healer positions.

[Kyani]

Also, Astrologian is "the meta of healing" because it's what you plan around - it requires the most specific counter, and punishes bad players far more than Scholar or WHM could ever hope to. That doesn't make it actually the best at everything.

[TheWaywardWind]

Anyone who genuinely believes that Aura Blast, a skill which only serves use in niche situations, is more useful than Retrogradation, a skill which can strip a buff off a maximum 48 people at once (although that's a stretch), seriously doesn't know how to play Astro. Sorry.