Randomized Dungeons :)

[myahele]

I don't think it'll help too much since in the end it'll be one long corridor type dungeon, just changing.

If anything, there should be more dungeon similar to Aurum Vale and Dzmael Darkhold

[Kurogaea]

I don't think it'll help too much since in the end it'll be one long corridor type dungeon, just changing.

If anything, there should be more dungeon similar to Aurum Vale and Dzmael Darkhold

Why not have a dungeon with multiple paths and also random??



This game didn't have random dungeons but its an example of how a dungeon should be. You'd know where to go, but how you get there differs. Door to boss is locked so we find a key. Can't get to this key since its surrounded by water so we'l have to drain it somehow. Find a valve to drain the water though its guarded by a big monster. Something of that nature but randomized with plenty of scenarios.

Also if any of you lack imagination, plz don't try to make a bland example just to make a point. ex: "Ugh, it'll just be like what you said but backwards. door is blocked by a sea of water and you have to find the key thats guarded by a monster." No, and if it was like that, I bet it'd still be more entertaining then watching you run Sohm Al 50 more times.

[Kosmos992k]

Why not have a dungeon with multiple paths and also random??

Image of Greede's Underbelly...

This game didn't have random dungeons but its an example of how a dungeon should be. You'd know where to go, but how you get there differs.

Yes! This is a great example of the kind of thing that could be done. The passages under Balandor were similarly complex, and had multiple paths. There was one random element - as you described, because the doors were locked differently depending on which quest was being run there, and different keys were available, so each use of the location differed, not to mention the placement of keys in rooms guarded (as you said) that could have been far across the map in an unrelated room, or required the solving of a puzzle to enter the room where the key was guarded.

You could also toss in maps with multiple teleport points and alternate paths, along with respawning enemies; I'm thinking of the Faria map and the Free Monster Quest there.

I don't remember Vellgander getting tired, even though the main levels followed the same template, each was different and difficult in it's own way - along with obtaining keys and operating switches to enable travel to the main room, before moving on up...

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Yes! This is a great example of the kind of thing that could be done. The passages under Balandor were similarly complex, and had multiple paths. There was one random element - as you described, because the doors were locked differently depending on which quest was being run there, and different keys were available, so each use of the location differed, not to mention the placement of keys in rooms guarded (as you said) that could have been far across the map in an unrelated room, or required the solving of a puzzle to enter the room where the key was guarded.

You could also toss in maps with multiple teleport points and alternate paths, along with respawning enemies; I'm thinking of the Faria map and the Free Monster Quest there.

I don't remember Vellgander getting tired, even though the main levels followed the same template, each was different and difficult in it's own way - along with obtaining keys and operating switches to enable travel to the main room, before moving on up...

The issue with that is the same one that was in SWTOR. People will always run the "path" of least resistance if its not random and they have control. There will always be patterns, thus it is no longer random anymore.

It has to be true random. Otherwise people will just pick the easiest path.

SWTOR made a 3 path system to dungeons, and guess what? I did the same path 1000x. It ended up just being a waste of development time.

You have to make it entirely random and remove all story elements from it. It needs to have a small story that ties it to lore. No cutscenes or anything that can make it too complicated.

Randomized Dungeons CANNOT be part of the story, they are just a side-story of the original dungeons. Simplified but random versions with clips and floors.


Even though it sounds silly. It is much easier to design a completely random dungeon then one with randomized split up paths. The thing is, once you do the former one once you can just redo the textures of it all, and add furniture and everything.

[Kosmos992k]

The issue with that is the same one that was in SWTOR. People will always run the "path" of least resistance if its not random and they have control. There will always be patterns, thus it is no longer random anymore.

It has to be true random. Otherwise people will just pick the easiest path.

SWTOR made a 3 path system to dungeons, and guess what? I did the same path 1000x.

In the examples I am thinking of, there were several paths that had do either be done sequentially or in parallel if your group was strong enough. Also, the placement of keys need not be the same every time, they simply need to be accessible within the dungeon regardless of the paths taken. The Underbelly of Greed was actually 3 complete levels and keys/switches for one level could be found on another, there was more than one way to get between floors and even switch paths. The point wasn't so much to make it random as it was to give players more choice on the paths that they take and the order in which they do things.

I'm not sure that it has to be completely random, but it does need to change a little to create variety. Unlike the dungeons and encounters in FFXIV which are quite linear and highly scripted, the encounters in maps such as the one Kurogaea posted could be tackled in whatever order the players chose. That in itself would be an improvement over what we already have.

One of the quests in the Underbelly started you in two teams at opposite ends of the dungeon, each team had to unlock things to reach the final chamber. If one team lacked the strength, the other could eventually cross paths and help out. Also, there were optional goals to allow a second boss fight if you cleared certain enemies before the final chamber was reached. optional or bonus elements that you can enable by working for a 'full' clear instead of a speed run, multiple paths with puzzles, switches and keys which also include some changeable elements. It doesn't have to be 100% RNG to be good.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

In the examples I am thinking of, there were several paths that had do either be done sequentially or in parallel if your group was strong enough. Also, the placement of keys need not be the same every time, they simply need to be accessible within the dungeon regardless of the paths taken. The Underbelly of Greed was actually 3 complete levels and keys/switches for one level could be found on another, there was more than one way to get between floors and even switch paths. The point wasn't so much to make it random as it was to give players more choice on the paths that they take and the order in which they do things.

I'm not sure that it has to be completely random, but it does need to change a little to create variety. Unlike the dungeons and encounters in FFXIV which are quite linear and highly scripted, the encounters in maps such as the one Kurogaea posted could be tackled in whatever order the players chose. That in itself would be an improvement over what we already have.

One of the quests in the Underbelly started you in two teams at opposite ends of the dungeon, each team had to unlock things to reach the final chamber. If one team lacked the strength, the other could eventually cross paths and help out. Also, there were optional goals to allow a second boss fight if you cleared certain enemies before the final chamber was reached. optional or bonus elements that you can enable by working for a 'full' clear instead of a speed run, multiple paths with puzzles, switches and keys which also include some changeable elements. It doesn't have to be 100% RNG to be good.

Well, it sounds like a really good idea. However, whats easier to create? A completely random dungeon or one with set passages and lore attached to it and different keys you have to find?

Remember, this is only one dungeon. If you follow a completely randomized formula I only need to make one dungeon, then I can just put different building blocks and textures in it to appear in different areas and change mob placements. Just like Diablo III does with its rifts.

Rather then make a dungeon, they made a system that "creates dungeons" for them so they don't have to.

Now, i'm not saying your system or idea is bad, or wrong but really.. can you see this community doing a dungeon that is like that, searching for keys? They will always go for the path of least resistance, if the dungeon takes too long they will ignore it.

[Kosmos992k]

Well, it sounds like a really good idea. However, whats easier to create? A completely random dungeon or one with set passages and lore attached to it and different keys you have to find?

Clearly a procedurally generated dungeon using existing tile sets and assets is potentially easier to create, but to ensure that the dungeon generated makes a modicum of sense, it's necessary to apply some level of programming to the procedural generation as well as do some play testing to ensure that what results is playable.

A more complex version of an existing map with gates/doors, keys, puzzles, switches, etc.. can be more planned in execution and possibly requires less programming and testing/balance effort to create. I guess what I am saying is that it depends on the actual content which is easier to implement.

Remember, this is only one dungeon. If you follow a completely randomized formula I only need to make one dungeon, then I can just put different building blocks and textures in it to appear in different areas and change mob placements. Just like Diablo III does with its rifts.

Rather then make a dungeon, they made a system that "creates dungeons" for them so they don't have to.

WKC sort of did this with it's own rift space, but the basic layout of spaces within those quests remained largely unchanged, which was a missed opportunity because you have no lavish backgrounds to keep consistent and the ground is the ground is the ground, so you are much more free to randomize things. On the other hand, such consistency and uniformity leads to boring levels and grinds which may in the end counter balance the random layout and enemy.