Randomized Dungeons :)

[dinnertime]

Imagine running a dungeon to find a version of Titan, I think if they did something like that, they could update the content to the current level cap, and give them a reason to update older content and bosses. I just wouldn't know what the lore behind it would be.

They could just make the beastmen tribe area the dungeon, honestly.

[m3eansean]

1.0 dungeons had some random elements at times.

They were removed. Players dont like random elements as a whole (despite what you read on the forums) and the Dev's when 2.0 was released were very focused on making the game "accessible" and used the term theme park several times in their description of how they wanted to frame the game. They said this was done to combat the evolving mobile gaming market, which is eating into a large chunk of their playerbase.

The idea is you line up for the ride you want, go through the expected course and get some tickets for a prize at the end. That is the core of this game, and it will not vary from this course unless and until it is is very dire financial straights.

Take it or leave it, the theme park weekly tome grind works for them right now financially and keeps players logging in. This is a safe MMO, they do the tried and true. Being the champions of accessible and relatively easy content that they are, I highly doubt they will release anything with random elements any time soon.

[Kurogaea]

...

You do realize no one likes this theme park idea right? They love the story, gameplay and immersion. What immersion can you get from walking down hallways we seen before with just different themes and enemies and repeating them over and over with no diversity for some item that would be most likely useless in the next 5 patches? Random dungeons would fix that.

Not to mention, this mode is optional. If people don't have time for it, then do if on your off day. Shouldn't bother you that someone else is doing less grindy content and your not. Its all about options in MMOs.

Also adding, Savage Random Dungeon. Holy crap. : O

[Nektulos-Tuor]

You do realize no one likes this theme park idea right? They love the story, gameplay and immersion. What immersion can you get from walking down hallways we seen before with just different themes and enemies and repeating them over and over with no diversity for some item that would be most likely useless in the next 5 patches? Random dungeons would fix that.

Not to mention, this mode is optional. If people don't have time for it, then do if on your off day. Shouldn't bother you that someone else is doing less grindy content and your not. Its all about options in MMOs.

Also adding, Savage Random Dungeon. Holy crap. : O

Exactly. That is the problem with immersion. FFXIV / WOW Dungeons were meant to be amazing the first time you see them, very good and fun the first time you do them. However, after you beat them?

All the color is gone, and the more you do them you realize that ... well honestly.

- Trash is pointless, all it does is make the dungeons longer.
- Monsters have bloated amounts of health, even in Alexander Savage and Raids.
- It all is the same repetitive nonsense after you do it once.

Monsters in dungeons for example (trash) barely hits you for anything, but takes forever to kill. Its all a big grind.



However, if you've ever played Everquest 2 for example in the TSO-(+4 expansions era) you will notice that they fix this by doing several things:

- Trash is as hard, if not harder then the bosses.
- Bosses do not have bloated HP, they are just very hard to kill.
- Trash drops loot/masters (masters allow you to "master" a skill you have.)
- Trash hits VERY hard, but dies very quick. This means you can't/can pull rooms (Depending on the skill of your party, but they are hitting a LOT harder), but it doesn't feel "grindy"

Dungeons were not designed to be cool the first time you go through them. They were designed to be ran 500+ times and still be fun the 501st.



Let us take one of the new dungeons recently designed for Heaven's ward. Sohm AI. I do this dungeon a lot, I've done it 30 times just for a sword for appearance I want. You want to know how fun doing it over and over it? ITS NOT. The monsters have so much health it literally feels like its giving me carpel tunnel and they BARELY hurt me. The trash is POINTLESS and they put walls over everything so we can't skip anything. THIS is also what WoW did.

Everquest HAS no walls, not even for boss rooms.


FFXIV feels like currently its: "Play our Way, or Don't Play." that isn't a good way to make dungeons. The novelty wears off eventually.

So, whilst I can say the dungeons are well designed for story, gameplay, mechanics. They are poorly designed to repetition, and fun. Once you do them once, you never want to do them EVER again. That isn't good.

[xJimmehx]

Snip

Agree entirely with this.

[myahele]

I don't think it'll help too much since in the end it'll be one long corridor type dungeon, just changing.

If anything, there should be more dungeon similar to Aurum Vale and Dzmael Darkhold

[Kurogaea]

I don't think it'll help too much since in the end it'll be one long corridor type dungeon, just changing.

If anything, there should be more dungeon similar to Aurum Vale and Dzmael Darkhold

Why not have a dungeon with multiple paths and also random??



This game didn't have random dungeons but its an example of how a dungeon should be. You'd know where to go, but how you get there differs. Door to boss is locked so we find a key. Can't get to this key since its surrounded by water so we'l have to drain it somehow. Find a valve to drain the water though its guarded by a big monster. Something of that nature but randomized with plenty of scenarios.

Also if any of you lack imagination, plz don't try to make a bland example just to make a point. ex: "Ugh, it'll just be like what you said but backwards. door is blocked by a sea of water and you have to find the key thats guarded by a monster." No, and if it was like that, I bet it'd still be more entertaining then watching you run Sohm Al 50 more times.

[Kosmos992k]

Why not have a dungeon with multiple paths and also random??

Image of Greede's Underbelly...

This game didn't have random dungeons but its an example of how a dungeon should be. You'd know where to go, but how you get there differs.

Yes! This is a great example of the kind of thing that could be done. The passages under Balandor were similarly complex, and had multiple paths. There was one random element - as you described, because the doors were locked differently depending on which quest was being run there, and different keys were available, so each use of the location differed, not to mention the placement of keys in rooms guarded (as you said) that could have been far across the map in an unrelated room, or required the solving of a puzzle to enter the room where the key was guarded.

You could also toss in maps with multiple teleport points and alternate paths, along with respawning enemies; I'm thinking of the Faria map and the Free Monster Quest there.

I don't remember Vellgander getting tired, even though the main levels followed the same template, each was different and difficult in it's own way - along with obtaining keys and operating switches to enable travel to the main room, before moving on up...

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Yes! This is a great example of the kind of thing that could be done. The passages under Balandor were similarly complex, and had multiple paths. There was one random element - as you described, because the doors were locked differently depending on which quest was being run there, and different keys were available, so each use of the location differed, not to mention the placement of keys in rooms guarded (as you said) that could have been far across the map in an unrelated room, or required the solving of a puzzle to enter the room where the key was guarded.

You could also toss in maps with multiple teleport points and alternate paths, along with respawning enemies; I'm thinking of the Faria map and the Free Monster Quest there.

I don't remember Vellgander getting tired, even though the main levels followed the same template, each was different and difficult in it's own way - along with obtaining keys and operating switches to enable travel to the main room, before moving on up...

The issue with that is the same one that was in SWTOR. People will always run the "path" of least resistance if its not random and they have control. There will always be patterns, thus it is no longer random anymore.

It has to be true random. Otherwise people will just pick the easiest path.

SWTOR made a 3 path system to dungeons, and guess what? I did the same path 1000x. It ended up just being a waste of development time.

You have to make it entirely random and remove all story elements from it. It needs to have a small story that ties it to lore. No cutscenes or anything that can make it too complicated.

Randomized Dungeons CANNOT be part of the story, they are just a side-story of the original dungeons. Simplified but random versions with clips and floors.


Even though it sounds silly. It is much easier to design a completely random dungeon then one with randomized split up paths. The thing is, once you do the former one once you can just redo the textures of it all, and add furniture and everything.

[Kosmos992k]

The issue with that is the same one that was in SWTOR. People will always run the "path" of least resistance if its not random and they have control. There will always be patterns, thus it is no longer random anymore.

It has to be true random. Otherwise people will just pick the easiest path.

SWTOR made a 3 path system to dungeons, and guess what? I did the same path 1000x.

In the examples I am thinking of, there were several paths that had do either be done sequentially or in parallel if your group was strong enough. Also, the placement of keys need not be the same every time, they simply need to be accessible within the dungeon regardless of the paths taken. The Underbelly of Greed was actually 3 complete levels and keys/switches for one level could be found on another, there was more than one way to get between floors and even switch paths. The point wasn't so much to make it random as it was to give players more choice on the paths that they take and the order in which they do things.

I'm not sure that it has to be completely random, but it does need to change a little to create variety. Unlike the dungeons and encounters in FFXIV which are quite linear and highly scripted, the encounters in maps such as the one Kurogaea posted could be tackled in whatever order the players chose. That in itself would be an improvement over what we already have.

One of the quests in the Underbelly started you in two teams at opposite ends of the dungeon, each team had to unlock things to reach the final chamber. If one team lacked the strength, the other could eventually cross paths and help out. Also, there were optional goals to allow a second boss fight if you cleared certain enemies before the final chamber was reached. optional or bonus elements that you can enable by working for a 'full' clear instead of a speed run, multiple paths with puzzles, switches and keys which also include some changeable elements. It doesn't have to be 100% RNG to be good.