Why vertical progression is poorly implemented

[Iagainsti]

One thing I can chime in about was the bad timing in this expansion with regards to vertical progression. I was fate farming my relic crystals last week because, unfortunately, there was no relic for the MCH. So there I am, farming fates for hours to get an i170 wep for my alt class, when it dawned on me that this exact step should have been released with xpac. At release, we had the choice of either acquiring law tomes to get an i170 wep to upgrade it with hunt seals to i180, or we went the trial route and received an 175 and then an 190 from ravana. Why could we not have the fate farm route for our 170 relic at the same time? I could've leveled my MCH this way between roulettes, but instead I had to level my MCH separately and now, 7 months later, am fate farming the new zones as a lvl 60 for an ilvl 170 weapon.... I'd like to point out I do love this game, but this was poor implementation.

[Interceptor]

How about instead of creating a new tomestone and associated gear every patch, the developers focus on content that actually makes use of the current high end tier?

[Kindread]

When someone says "Horizontal Gear Progression" my face twitches and I cannot help but think of the staleness of GW2 end game .. or lack there of.

Vertical Gear Progression has been a staple to these types of games. We all remember a time when we ran a dungeon/raid 50-100 times and only saw it drop once to have that PUG member need roll. It's part of the game and creates memories. I am sorry if you are frustrated, I was too when it was happening to me in other games, but it's just how the RNG system works. In the meantime there are quite a few other AAA games out there that do not have this type of system. However I am still finding enjoyment in this one, so I will stick around.

Do we really want to live in an immediate gratification society where if you run it enough times the game just gives it to you? That seems rather lazy to me.

[MilesSaintboroguh]

Do we really want to live in an immediate gratification society where if you run it enough times the game just gives it to you? That seems rather lazy to me.

Yes, because if something doesn't drop for me after a while, I'll just leave it behind and do something else. I dunno about you, but I don't like wasting time in something that yielded nothing in return after so many times.

[Starbirth]

Yes, because if something doesn't drop for me after a while, I'll just leave it behind and do something else. I dunno about you, but I don't like wasting time in something that yielded nothing in return after so many times.

It's this type of thinking that has dulled MMOs.

[Lilith_Merquise]

It's this type of thinking that has dulled MMOs.

Yep, you shouldn't need a pat on the butt for every little thing you do in the game. Because then the value of the action and the reward become meaningless. I'm not saying you should spend a year on content and get nothing for it, but a little RNG to make people want to group together and do things rather then burning through content in a day and then having nothing to do is a real shame. Sure leave the "Tome Treadmill" items in the game for players that feel every minute of their game time should generate them 10k gil.

But why not give items for the more mid-core hardcore that are RNG, harder to get, but better stats/ilvl... I don't understand why those that want to put no time into this gam with out reward, should have access to the players that want to be able to put more time into this game but have no content to do so.

[Ibi]

I'm not saying you should spend a year on content and get nothing for it, but a little RNG to make people want to group together and do things rather then burning through content in a day and then having nothing to do is a real shame.

What the maximum amount of time that someone should be able to spend on a particular piece of content and get nothing for it?

A week? Two weeks? A month? Six months?

The problem with relying on RNG as your only method of reward is that no matter how long you think the acceptable time frame is, the very nature of RNG ensures that you're always going to end up with someone exceeding that threshold.

No one's suggesting that every time someone enters a piece of content they should walk away with one of the available rewards. The intent is that if someone persists with that piece of content for long enough (with long enough admittedly going to be a judgement that varies from person to person), you're guaranteed to at least have something to show for your efforts.

Saying that "Atma Grinds" were bad for the game couldn't be further from the truth IMO, it put people in an unpopulated places, and honestly made people discover things that thy wouldn't otherwise know about the zones because nobody did them.

Relevant to the discussion of RNG (and I know it's not necessarily relevant to the point Lilith was making, but it's a good example), what's the benefit to the game as a whole to have those people whose luck is incredibly good coming in, getting all their drops in three FATEs, and moving on?

If the only answer is "To balance out the people who still don't have them after three hundred FATEs", that suggests that it's not a particularly good design.

[Kindread]

Yes, because if something doesn't drop for me after a while, I'll just leave it behind and do something else. I dunno about you, but I don't like wasting time in something that yielded nothing in return after so many times.

Than what's wrong with simply not getting the item? Maybe someone else did and you didn't, good on them for sticking to it, or getting lucky, but asking for a hand out just because you ran it as many times as you were willing too is just ignorant.

[Ibi]

Do we really want to live in an immediate gratification society where if you run it enough times the game just gives it to you? That seems rather lazy to me.

I think the practice of having to "run it enough times" is pretty much the antithesis of "immediate gratification".

Personally, I think it's completely reasonable that of the amount of effort and time that a person invests into a particular activity should have an influence on the results, beyond simply providing more opportunities to roll the dice and hope the result is in their favor.

I'm not sure it's entirely relevant to this discussion though, since token or currency systems that provide rewards after completing content a requisite number of times can be present in both horizontal and vertical progression systems. Likewise they can be absent from both.

[Kindread]

I think the practice of having to "run it enough times" is pretty much the antithesis of "immediate gratification".

How is it the opposite? I've been in groups with people that were on the 50th or so attempt to get an item, and when it finally dropped for them it made the game. They will remember that moment for years, but having a token type system in place is catering to those that need that immediate gratification.

There is NOTHING wrong with simply not getting the item. This game does updates enough that it will not break your characters if those leggings or whatever, never drop for you, and it still puts the pressure on you to log in everyday, which is what the system is based on.

You are correct though, this is getting off topic, a token system (for good or bad) could be related to both progression systems.