Why vertical progression is poorly implemented

[MilesSaintboroguh]

Don't dodge the question, Starbirth.

And Lilith, noticed how I said Atma and not Animus. I think the only reason people say Amta pre nerf was a good thing was because it helped them out grinding Fates if they weren't doing the Atma grinds themselves and this was before the devs made EXP grinding easier as 3.0 was coming close to launch. Fates could have been something more, more variety in them would have been nice. Heck, the whole reason a lot of people were up in arms over the relics then and now was rehashing old content time and time again. That can only keep people reeled in for so long until they just say screw it and wait till the relic steps get nerfed before doing them again. That in the long term won't help anyone.

[Lilith_Merquise]

@milessaintboroguh
Got confused because both require "Atma" an figured nobody would be discussing useless 2.x content when current 3.x content makes it irrelevant... And stating a gripe about something that by all accounts is improved in 3.x just seems like a non-starter for debate. If you're expecting intense stuff from fates, keep in mind people have to do it for leveling, if you want challenging fights, do EX primals or Savage Alex, looking for challenge in fates is just preparing yourself for disappointment. Personally I want to see more out of Diadem bing that it is an innovative system FOR THIS GAME, but also new systems especially ones that harken back to 11 times Salvage, Assaults, and Nyzul Isle. That would make my life in this game.

@Ibi then you plug away? Whats wrong with spending time on content when there is nothing else to do? What are people in such a rush for? The content you get isn't even required to do anything in the game anyway. So why does it matter if it takes you a week or a month? At least you have something to do that you want. And if that isn't appealing to you, then you will tend more towards games that are action and achivement based rather then MMOs that are Time Applied = Reward Appreciation. You appreciate more what you put more time in.

[Andrea]

@Ibi then you plug away? Whats wrong with spending time on content when there is nothing else to do? What are people in such a rush for? The content you get isn't even required to do anything in the game anyway. So why does it matter if it takes you a week or a month? At least you have something to do that you want. And if that isn't appealing to you, then you will tend more towards games that are action and achivement based rather then MMOs that are Time Applied = Reward Appreciation. You appreciate more what you put more time in.

The problem comes when people could literally finish the atma stage in an hour when it first came out and some poor person could be still on it and not seen one drop after a month.

That is not good game design. Its ok to make something that takes a while, but RNG is not good.

[Ibi]

@Ibi then you plug away? Whats wrong with spending time on content when there is nothing else to do? What are people in such a rush for?

As I said in the post directly preceding yours: "No one's suggesting that every time someone enters a piece of content they should walk away with one of the available rewards."

The content you get isn't even required to do anything in the game anyway. So why does it matter if it takes you a week or a month? At least you have something to do that you want.

The issue is not when it takes weeks to get a reward. It's when it takes person A one or two days to get the reward and person B two or three weeks to get the reward.

Having the connection between effort invested and rewards obtained being completely random is a really effective way to increase player frustration and drive them away from the game.

And if that isn't appealing to you, then you will tend more towards games that are action and achivement based rather then MMOs that are Time Applied = Reward Appreciation. You appreciate more what you put more time in.

Even if that weren't completely subjective, it's only true up to a certain extent.

Most people have thresholds beyond which the time applied ceases to worth the reward, and they stop putting the time in altogether or beyond which the continued time investment becomes so burdensome that even when they get the reward it no longer feels like a reward; they're simply glad that the grind is over.