Why vertical progression is poorly implemented

[Gunspec]

So I just noticed something about this thread... Are lots of people posting with alts? I'm going to assume so, because I'm seeing lots of opinions (both for and against VP) coming from characters that aren't level 60 on any class yet.

Now I'll admit I never hit level cap in FFXI when I played, so my knowledge of that game is limited to what I've heard friends describe, but my opinion on OTHER horizontal progression games that I've hit endgame is that it kills my interest since I'll never grow stronger beyond tweaking, min-maxing, and developing new but similar powered character builds. It always feels like there is nothing to look forward to when it comes to my character.

What I look forward to in FFXIV is seeing the ilevel cap go up, getting that extra power, and doing more with it. I look forward to soloing and duoing more old content, clearing dragonskin maps without needing to form a party, punching more A rank hunts in the face, and walking into new fights that hit hard and take a long time to kill, knowing that I'll gear up to kick their butts better in the future. Maybe I'm crazy, but being able to go back and fight Ultima Weapon 1v1, helping a new player with their story quests by annihilating a dungeon I once crawled through, and seeing how quickly my well geared groups can handle dungeons that used to take what felt like an eternity... those are some of my favorite moments that come with vertical progression. Horizontal progression alternatives just sound like grind in which nothing really changes.

[Alahra]

It always feels like there is nothing to look forward to when it comes to my character.

FFXI did honestly have vertical progression, too, but that progression typically only happened once every several years. The game was originally cappped at level 50 (like this one) but by the time it released in NA, the first expansion had raised the level cap to Level 75. Four or five years after that, the level cap was raised to 90 in a series of mini-expansions, and then sometime after that (I can't remember exactly how long) the level cap was increased to 99. A few years after that, they instituted item levels mostly as we understand them here (which is where the game now stands).

For all the time in between those periods, the game has been horizontal (even now, after they tried to make it more directly vertical, they've had to go back and reinstate most of the old horizontal aspects through upgrade quests for old gear and the like, because that's what their playerbase, small though it is, wants). And a big part of why horizontal progression worked in FFXI was that leveling was essentially the vertical progression, not gear. It took a very long time to get to 75 during the first expansion, and you had all those Limit Break Quests getting in the way, Missions to do, and so on. What that meant was that, by the time someone hit 75, there was just a metric ton of content to gear up that job, whether it was their first job or a newly leveled one, and everything took tons of time (the kind of time that makes our current Anima questline look like a joke).

Something like that could never work in FFXIV mainly because of time. The game's already set up in a way that the endgame is where they want people to be, which is why we can level so fast, and so on, and no matter how long content lasts at the level cap, it will never be able to meet demand when people can get to 60 in a week or two and when they can then gear up a job at a basic functional level in another week or two. There's not going to be any room for real horizontal progression in FFXIV and the people clamoring for it honestly don't understand that a game has to be built from the ground up for it to function properly. They want a different game.

Yes, you can add what I normally call horizontal aspects to the game (like more gearsets at the highest item level for each raid tier), and that's something I'm in favor of. But those aspects wouldn't actually result in horizontal progression in any way. The overarching progression would still be massively vertical, just as FFXI's progression was still largely horizontal despite it being punctuated with periods of intense vertical progression.

[Ibi]

Now I'll admit I never hit level cap in FFXI when I played, so my knowledge of that game is limited to what I've heard friends describe, but my opinion on OTHER horizontal progression games that I've hit endgame is that it kills my interest since I'll never grow stronger beyond tweaking, min-maxing, and developing new but similar powered character builds. It always feels like there is nothing to look forward to when it comes to my character.

This is absolutely one of the major drawbacks to a horizontal progression system. Any increases in player power become minimal, and it can take literal years before you can return to old content and actually notice the difference.

The game was originally cappped at level 50 (like this one) but by the time it released in NA, the first expansion had raised the level cap to Level 75. Four or five years after that, the level cap was raised to 90 in a series of mini-expansions, and then sometime after that (I can't remember exactly how long) the level cap was increased to 99. A few years after that, they instituted item levels mostly as we understand them here (which is where the game now stands).

To fill in the actual dates:

• 05/2002: JP PS2 launch, level cap is 50.
• 09/2002: Level cap raised to 55.
• 11/2002: Level cap raised to 60.
• 04/2003: Level cap raised to 65 in Rise of the Zilart pre-patch. Expansion goes live a couple of days later.
• 07/2003: Level cap raised to 70.
• 10/2003: NA PC launch.
• 12/2003: Level cap raised to 75.

(Source for the above)

The cap remained at 75 for six and a half years, until the Abyssea add-ons were introduced in the second half of 2010. Those raised the cap to 90, where it paused for a while, then continued to 99 by the end of 2011.

• 06/2010: Vision of Abyssea is released. Level cap increased to 80.
• 09/2010: Scars of Abyssea is released. Level cap increased to 85.
• 12/2010: Heroes of Abyssea is released. Level cap increased to 90.
• 09/2011: Level cap increased to 95.
• 12/2011: Level cap increased to 99.

Finally, item levels were first introduced in 07/2013.

For all the time in between those periods, the game has been horizontal

Although this is generally true, there were definitely instances of gear being introduced that could obsolete a lot of older stuff even when the level cap wasn't increasing. In particular, events like Limbus and Salvage added new sets that you would completely replace older items (but due to FFXI's ability to change equipment in combat though, it's rare that you'd ever replace all your gear for a particular slot with any upgrade).

[Alahra]

Although this is generally true, there were definitely instances of gear being introduced that could obsolete a lot of older stuff even when the level cap wasn't increasing.

Oh, of course. ToAU in particular introduced a lot of power-house items that lasted for a good long time, and they were also a lot better than anything that had come before. Thaumas Coat was BiS for NIN for TP even after they introduced item levels and only got dethroned within the last year or so by a couple of the upgraded AF/Relic pieces depending on your available magic Haste (and if you've got all sources of Haste I'm pretty sure it's *still* the best).

[Dzian]

Although this is generally true, there were definitely instances of gear being introduced that could obsolete a lot of older stuff even when the level cap wasn't increasing. In particular, events like Limbus and Salvage added new sets that you would completely replace older items (but due to FFXI's ability to change equipment in combat though, it's rare that you'd ever replace all your gear for a particular slot with any upgrade).

Gear swaps are something i'd happily never see again, 3 -4 gear sets per ability was horrendous.

However Even when a piece of gear did completely replace another piece of gear, in most cases it was individual items and not entire sets that were replaced. I think that makes a big difference.

If you spent months or even a year gearing up your character and then got a new pair of pants that completely replaced your current pants it wasn't so bad as the rest of the gear you spent so much time building up was still valuable. so the new pair of pants is an improvement to your whole build and not a complete replacement.

The issue with vertical progression as it is in xiv currently is you spend months building up your gear, only for your whole build to be made obsolete a month later. it basically makes the entire time you spent building up your gear feel worthless and wasted. and this is why people are getting peeved at the endless treadmill.

Gear needs to be valuable, lasting and genuinely worth getting.

[Iagainsti]

Gear needs to be valuable, lasting and genuinely worth getting.

[Ibi]

Gear swaps are something i'd happily never see again, 3 -4 gear sets per ability was horrendous.

It was fun if you're someone who really enjoyed trying to min-max every possible aspect of your character.

Oh, and had Windower properly configured so that you could actually take advantage of that gear without having to press three different macros every time you wanted to use a job ability.

However Even when a piece of gear did completely replace another piece of gear, in most cases it was individual items and not entire sets that were replaced. I think that makes a big difference.

If you spent months or even a year gearing up your character and then got a new pair of pants that completely replaced your current pants it wasn't so bad as the rest of the gear you spent so much time building up was still valuable. so the new pair of pants is an improvement to your whole build and not a complete replacement.

Although they didn't gear that would obsolete an entire set, it certainly happened. Homam from Proto-Omega replaced the TP sets for the classes that could wear it. Usukane from Salvage did the same.

I think the biggest difference is that because the game was built around horizontal progression, gear was always incredibly difficult to actually acquire rapidly unless you were incredibly fortunate. It didn't matter so much that your current gear was obsolete over night, because it was quite possible that it was going to take you a year and a half to actually acquire the new gear.

The issue with vertical progression as it is in xiv currently is you spend months building up your gear, only for your whole build to be made obsolete a month later. it basically makes the entire time you spent building up your gear feel worthless and wasted. and this is why people are getting peeved at the endless treadmill.

Gear needs to be valuable, lasting and genuinely worth getting.

The counterpoint being that the issue with horizontal progression is that in order to make gear valuable, lasting, and genuinely worth getting, you generally have to slow the rate of acquisition to a crawl.

If Savage used an FFXI approach to loot, you'd either only get a drop one in every four or five runs, or you'd have to re-clear to A4S at a rate of one floor a week, and only that would actually provide any items.

[Xtrasweettea]

So I just noticed something about this thread... Are lots of people posting with alts? I'm going to assume so, because I'm seeing lots of opinions (both for and against VP) coming from characters that aren't level 60 on any class yet.

Do we need to post with an account with a class that is level 60 to give validity or weight to opinions we provide?

I can understand having a level 60 class to add weight behind opinions or point of views pertaining to that specific class, doing events with that specific class, the state of events at level 60, etc.

For general opinions that do not necessarily require you to have working knowledge of an event, class, endgame, etc. that is experienced at 60, requiring a class at 60 to post an opinion is unnecessary.