Why vertical progression is poorly implemented

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You talked about the support they had at 2.0. That is called a honeymoon period. It is right after launch when everything is new and shiny. It happens with almost every new game I've played. Viewpoints naturally change as a game matures and people start to question aspects of the game that don't necessarily meet their personal expectations. That has also happened in every game Ive played.

Okay, Belhi... Look.

If you're genuinely interested in having a sane, civil conversation with me, then I'm going to have to ask you to please stop putting words in my mouth, or ignoring what I very clearly and deliberately have explained to you.

If you can't, or are unwilling to do that, then please block me, and never respond to another of my posts again, because I'd have no interest in interacting with you further.

I very clearly described a time-frame in my post of 1-2 years (even longer if we want to include everything up to 3.1, and even on into 3.2, based on what we know), with the launch of 2.0 being the very beginning point, but not the sole focus of my observation (hence why I said 1-2 years and not just "the first few months after launch"). 1 year is no longer a "honeymoon period", much less 2+ years. Regardless, nothing I said has anything to do with a "honeymoon period". It has to do with how the level of "fanaticism" and the general vibe around this game has degraded over the course of 1-2 years, due to the way SE has been repeating and regurgitating the same handful of systems over and over, from patch to patch, and even into its first expansion.

More variety can be good. I certainly agree FF14 could benefit from more. However I would make two points.

First is that not everything people remember from FF11 will integrate well into FF14 systems. Its not the same engine and its not the same game. Alternately a lot of those ideas would likely take a lot of time and effort to implement anyway so if this is the case and they can do it you are very unlikely to see anything till 4.0 at the earliest. Anything more is probably being unrealistic on the amount of work such implementations would take.

This is why I said "adapt them to FFXIV", and clearly didn't say "implement them wholesale, as-is, into FFXIV".

Again, you're ignoring what I am saying, and responding to what I'm not.

When I play a class I want it to work. I don't want to have to look up correct build or screw around trying to find ones that work. I want to pick something and play content with it and know that I haven't made any bad choices. I hate build experimenting. I hate trying to have to figure out what works well. I don't like playing dud, if novel, builds.

Okay, so you prefer to have things ready-made. Fine.

This happens in a lot of MMOs I've played with Horizontal progression.

It happens a lot in MMOs with vertical progression as well.

And if I need to look up websites to see what is works then in my view the game is flawed.

I completely disagree with this, as experimenting and finding a build that is tailored to how I enjoy playing is far more enjoyable than simply following someone else's build, or having it spelled out for me... but again, to each their own.

When you're looking up websites to "see what works", what you're finding is "what's worked for other people". And what works for other people may not necessarily work for you. Further whatever the current "build du-jour" is now could very well change again in a month down the road, at which point people either decide "well I enjoy this build, so I'll keep going with this". Or, they decide "well shoot, now that's considered the best build, I guess now I have to change over to that". That's players imposing artificial restrictions on themselves.

Every time a new viable build is discovered, it's a clear demonstration that the game allows for a variety of setups that work well across various content. It's the players who then say "No, there's no room for multiple options, no matter how valid they'd previously proven to be. There can be only one, it must be the best, and everyone must use it". A build that's worked well for many months doesn't suddenly become crap because someone found another one that works a little better. Not to mention that, over time, many builds prove to be situational at best, and not "one size fits all".

This is actually in the same vein of what I was getting at in the post you quote-mined that paragraph from. I was mocking the idea of people feeling like they had to keep changing up their entire playstyle to fit some fluid group-think "standard" of "how you're supposed to play", rather than just sticking with a build they actually enjoyed playing, and got the job done.

That's not min/maxing. There is a difference in playing a class how it is designed to be played and screwing around with builds trying to get something that works. Horizontal progression almost always ends up with builds that are bad or wrong. If they can exist in a game I have issue with it. That for me is poor design.

The thing is, "bad or wrong" can be highly subjective. Someone can have a build that is 100% functional for that person and their playstyle. I'll find it to be "bad" for me, though, because it's not built around how I enjoy playing. And the reverse could be true as well.

Again, though, understanding you prefer those details to be pre-determined, I could see how having choices might be construed as a bad thing.

I specifically refer to the fact that most players have little to know understanding of what is possible with game design or what potential issues can hamper it. That's not necessarily an issue with imagination. It can be an issue with engine limitations or available resources.

Do you know what is possible with game design, or what they can or can't accomplish within engine limitations or available resources? Are you qualified to provide a well-supported case for things that "can't be done", rather than simply "aren't being done"?

If you can't, and aren't privy to such info, then I don't see the point in making that argument in the first place. You haven't the knowledge to prove it's so, and I haven't the knowledge to say otherwise. So why even bring it up?

On the other hand, I *can* (from memory, and with enough Googling) point to examples of where Yoshida has clearly stated in the past that things players are asking for are possible, but he doesn't want to do them that way, because he envisions the game being played a very specific way. He's given such explanations for things going back to even before ARR's Alpha.

You're grasping at unknowns. I'm referring to things that have actually been said.

Sure and their views are very valid. However rarely do people think their issues and views are in the minority and frankly the way you worded your original comments that I quoted seem to suggest you believed you were in the majority. Truth is though there is no way anyone can really do more than say what they personally feel. Speaking on behalf of community sentiment without any solid quantitive proof that your view is a match for it is flawed.

No. You're doing it again.

I wrote exactly what I meant, and I meant exactly what I wrote. At no point did I say "most people". The only place my "wording" seems to suggest otherwise is in your head, because you can't seem to not put words in my mouth.

Knock it off.

Stop putting words in my mouth.I'm not talking for him. Im am pretty much repeating the gist of what he said in an interview only a few weeks back. In fact, the 'I would add an new Job over an alternative way of playing the same Job' is almost a direct quote. As he said, they require about the same amount of resources to implement and balance.

I wasn't putting words in your mouth. You made some unsubstantiated remarks about things you couldn't know, and I was pointing out that fact. If you were referencing something he'd actually said, that detail would have been helpful at the time you originally said it.

That said, it's cute how when you convey something Yoshi's said, it's relevant. Yet, when I convey something Yoshi, and many others in the FFXIV community, have said... none of that matters.

How very convenient for you.

I quoted the most relevant part for my response. Are you saying that the rest of the post had context that changed the essence of what you said? If I quoted the whole thing my response would pretty much be the same.

No, you quote-mined the part that was easiest to take out of context, and most convenient to your narrative.

Yes, if you were reading the *entire* post your quote was taken from, and doing so in good-faith, the context of it would have changed the "essence" of what I said. That's how context works, when you're not deliberately ignoring or twisting it around for your own ends.

And if you're being honest in saying that even reading it in its full context wouldn't change your answer, then you have just proven - in your own words - exactly what I questioned at the beginning of this response... that you are not interested in having a sane, civil discussion.

So, I will ask you, again, to block me and never respond to any of my posts in the future. I have no tolerance for dishonest people.