Why vertical progression is poorly implemented

[Lemuria]

Vertical progression is a phrase that gets tossed around a lot, but what does it actually mean? In short, it means a supply of ever-increasing gear with clear 'steps' to progress to the next best set. Final Fantasy XIV has a wealth of equipment in the game, and much of it will never see the light of day beyond glamours. Why is this? Because of constant planned obsolescence.

It's no secret that SE will eventually be removing law tomes, and relegating esoterics to the sidelines when they bring out their new tome. The current law gear will likely be reduced to armor drops in one of the dungeons, much like the relic and philosophy gear before it. The question is whether or not they've actually considered the wider impact of these changes. I don't believe so.

From the perspective of a new player, they jump from item level 50-ish to item level 120 in the blink of an eye. That's a whopping +70 levels worth of strength. There's no real stop-gaps for them. Sure they could spend the time and farm Philosophy or Relic gear, but why bother when the selfsame dungeons they drop in earn them poetics tomes to buy far superior equipment?

Every time the upper bar is raised, the lower levels are also raised. What this means is that while there is a glut of equipment spanning 210 levels, the gear which is used is actually a very narrow band. In turn, this makes lower level dungeons a cakewalk, and results in some growing discontent from higher level players who've been on this same treadmill for years.

Square-Enix has some truly talented people behind the scenes creating the content we all enjoy, so I can't believe this narrow-band progression was not intentional. However, it is also a danger in the long run. People need surprises and challenges to prompt them to come back. Spoon-feed them bananas for a year, and they're going to get rather sick of bananas, no matter how much they loved them to start with.

The vertical progression needs to change drastically, or be removed in its entirety. Square-Enix needs to get off this train before it becomes the express line to blandness.

So, agree? Disagree? Whatever your thoughts, keep it polite. Those who complain the loudest usually care the most. Those who accept all, usually don't care enough.

[Kumori_Kumo]

It's not that I disagree with the premise entirely... but rather I can't help but ask the obvious question that comes out of it.
"If not this, then what?"
What else is there? I'm no game designer, I dunno how this stuff works. What would be a better system, and can you point to some examples where it worked?

[Cilia]

While I don't like the blandness of doing 2 dungeons for months on end only to get gear that will become obsolete in ~3 months...

... as long as the game is built around the raiding scene, and raiders need an easy way to gear up replacements / substitutes, this is just the way things are going to be.

The oft-brought up "horizontal progression" simply provides an illusion of choice (since there is only one best path that will be enforced by the community) or more work to do (which will annoy raiders (see the MSQ requiring completion to unlock the endgame and new Dungeons / Trials not being tied to it any longer as a result) and frustrate / turn away casual players).

There is no perfect solution, and I agree, vertical progression gets dull. That said, have you an alternative to offer?

[Ashkendor]

From the perspective of a new player, they jump from item level 50-ish to item level 120 in the blink of an eye. That's a whopping +70 levels worth of strength. There's no real stop-gaps for them. Sure they could spend the time and farm Philosophy or Relic gear, but why bother when the selfsame dungeons they drop in earn them poetics tomes to buy far superior equipment?

Since you're talking about new players here, I feel like I should point out that the class quests at level 45 and 50 now give out the i90 Philosophy gear in addition to the i50/55 Artifact gear. I believe the MSQ also gives you an i90 weapon (the ones from Primal Focus) and possibly an i110 weapon. As you progress through Heavensward, if you do the MSQ and all of your side quests you can also get entire sets of HQ crafted gear items starting at item level 115 and going all the way to item level 145.

[Brannigan]

The problem has to do with the capped tomestones coming from dungeons. Because tomestone armor is always higher item level than dungeon armor, the tomestones become the true reward from the dungeon - not whatever you find in the treasure chest at the end. This problem actually got worse with Heavensward, because you can purchase raid-level weapons (ilvl200) without raid drops. The lack of a drop requirement (Unidentified Allagan Tomestone, etc) completely nullified Ravana and Bismark weapons.


The solution, I think, is to rework how tomestones are distributed and what they can buy. First of all, raid level gear should require raiding - whether it's 8 man or 24 man. Secondly, dungeon gear should be a viable entry point to raids. Primal drops should fill the gap along with crafted gear. I think a decent drop setup would look something like

Patch 4.0 hits!

Non-expert dungeons drop their old gear and uncapped tomestones that can be used on crafting materials and gear that prepares you for current experts.
Expert Dungeons should be a bit more difficult than they are now. They drop item level X armor and (weekly capped) dungeon tomestones that can be used to purchase item level X items. Tomestones are meant to mitigate bad RNG and you should be able to cap them after 3-4 runs.
Crafters create tokens that can upgrade Expert Dungeon and Expert Tomestone drops to item level X+10. They use materials from tomestones, drops, and gatherers.
Primals drop item level X+10 weapons and accessories.
8-man raids drop item level X+30 gear and (weekly capped) raid tomestones that can be used to purchase item level X+20 gear. They also drop upgrade materials that turn your raid tomestone gear into X+30. Defeating half of the raid is enough to cap you each week.

Then, patch 4.1 hits

New expert dungeons drop item level X+10 gear and (capped) dungeon tomestones that let you buy X+10
New primal drops item level X+20 weapons
24 man raid drops item level X+20 gear (1/week) that can be upgraded with materials from the 8 man raid to X+30. You can earn raid tomestones from this once per week as well (weekly quest or something), equivalent to defeating half of the 8 man raid.


By doing this I think it'd smooth out the curve a lot. Unfortunately you're left with the problem of "without raid tomestones why should I keep logging in every week?" Really, they just have to create more raid stuff. With more bosses they can make it easier to pug/get into raiding.

It's pretty stupid how right now you just skip every piece of old content entirely. It also leads to a lot of dead on arrival content like Void Ark. No one is doing that shit for the gear - only the upgrade items.

[Belhi]

I think the current system can definitely be improved to work better and create better incentives for players wanting a challenge to remove the advantage high level gear gives by setting the ilvl of all gear to the base level of dungeon, a feature that already exists in the game. A gambit system could also create a higher challenge level for existing content in a reasonable amount of work.

I don't think it needs replacing. Both horizontal progression models and vertical progression models have pros and cons. Overhauling FF14 to be a horizontal progression game would, I suspect be a huge amount of work, and only replace one set of issues with game progression with a different set. The investment in resources to facilitate such a change almost certainly have a detrimental effect on content release and that would have a worse effect on player happiness than the issues with progression do.

[CyrilLucifer]

The oft-brought up "horizontal progression" simply provides an illusion of choice (since there is only one best path that will be enforced by the community).

That's not what horizontal progression is at all. Horizontal progression as most of us want it would have gearsets that are variable based on the situation. The whole point of it is that there isn't one ideal BiS slot. What is BiS changes based upon the encounter or party makeup. People who want things like skill trees aren't really asking for horizontal progression, they're asking for more variability in ways to build their character.

As the game is now, though, fundamentally proper horizontal progression is impossible, so I believe that we need a balance. As I always do, I point to TERA for a vertical progression MMO that does a decent job of at least offering variable stats and equipment that change based off of the situation.

[Zojha]

Final Fantasy XIV has a wealth of equipment in the game, and much of it will never see the light of day beyond glamours. Why is this? Because of constant planned obsolescence.

I would disagree here. It is the premise of progression "as such" to make things you have progressed past obsolete. It doesn't matter "how" this progression happens. If you "have" the best option (for a given circumstance), there's no reason to pick anything else (for that circumstance). And there is no reason for players to strive for anything "but" the best option (for a given circumstance).

The current model ensures two things, namely that the most recent content is the most relevant and that progression never comes to a halt. Nothing more, nothing less. Aptly named treadmill after all. The alternative model will commonly produce content that's dead on arrival and allow players to steer themselves into a state of "game over" where there is no further way to progress. The latter model therefore typically relies on insane timesinks in order to push that state further away, as it would mean the player has no further incentive to stay.

That said, it ultimately comes down to preference. I have little issues with the current model, but then again, I play most of the classes and don't always need top of the line equipment, only "just enough" to be able to play the classes in current content at all.

[Dzian]

Expert Dungeons should be a bit more difficult than they are now. They drop item level X armor and (weekly capped) dungeon tomestones that can be used to purchase item level X items. Tomestones are meant to mitigate bad RNG and you should be able to cap them after 3-4 runs.

This was a fairly common opinion back right back in beta and even 1.2. (except the cap after 3-4 runs part)

People fed up of doing cc/av thousands of times and getting nothing was a big problem.
What people wanted from the tomestones was simply a back up plan. similar to how garuda worked in 1.2. guaranteed a totem even if your weapon didn't drop, so you knew you would get the item you wanted eventually even if it took 40 wins to get the 40 totems. or 20 if you "won in short order". it was never meant to be the primary way of getting gear.

So yeah the experts should drop gear of the same level as the tomestones, and the tomestones should be a "back up plan". if you've ran that expert 100 times and still not got the damn shoes to complete your gear set. at least now you can finally get them with tomestones kinda thing.

That's not what horizontal progression is at all. Horizontal progression as most of us want it would have gearsets that are variable based on the situation. The whole point of it is that there isn't one ideal BiS slot. What is BiS changes based upon the encounter or party makeup..

This.

I said in another thread that way back in beta Yoship said gear wasn't valuable or an item to cherish / hold on to as it would all be obselte. the rewards from contents are gears, but the gears aren't valuable. so where the incentive...

it's no wonder people aren't bothering with savage. when the reward is going to be "junk"

[Alahra]

So yeah the experts should drop gear of the same level as the tomestones, and the tomestones should be a "back up plan". if you've ran that expert 100 times and still not got the damn shoes to complete your gear set. at least now you can finally get them with tomestones kinda thing.

While I'm not opposed to this in theory, it would have a lot of ripple effects throughout endgame progression. Right now, the development team strictly tracks available item levels when balancing the raid tiers, so they can gauge roughly how long it should take a player to reach the item level needed to clear the content. If you could instead farm dungeons and get entry-level raid gear, they'd most likely introduce some other form of lockout with it (like weekly lockouts on loot reminiscent of the 24-man raids).

Considering the "get currency, get loot every week" model has been pretty well established since 2005 or so (I can't remember when WoW first added it) I can't see them making major changes in this regard. The model's proven fairly successful at maintaining player subscriptions (even if it kind of results in a "revolving door" model).

Personally, I don't mind the lockouts but I wouldn't be sad to see them go, either, or at least relaxed in some way (I'd like the ability to choose three jobs that I could max out tomestones on each week or something, for instance, so that I could gear alt jobs a bit faster).