Why vertical progression is poorly implemented

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Horizontal Progression like that sucks. Horizontal Progression should be about making a character to your play style. The second I need to "swap sets" for every boss because I don't have enough "Ice Resistance (crappy stat, terrible idea.)" is the day I quit.

Horizontal Progression is about procs/effects/set bonsuses!

[Xellos2099]

Horizontal Progression like that sucks. Horizontal Progression should be about making a character to your play style. The second I need to "swap sets" for every boss because I don't have enough "Ice Resistance (crappy stat, terrible idea.)" is the day I quit.

Horizontal Progression is about procs/effects/set bonsuses!

It doesn't matter at all since there is always a superior spec. Anything less than ideal will be kicked. Remember the original xi guide that state war/whm is a good combination?

[CyrilLucifer]

It doesn't matter at all since there is always a superior spec. Anything less than ideal will be kicked. Remember the original xi guide that state war/whm is a good combination?

Bad example, that guide was filled with a lot of flat out wrong information. No one in their right mind would use THF/BLM, one of the "recommended" combinations for battle. There is no point in it. XI's mechanics did not allow THF/BLM to work outside of traveling and running around in towns.

The XI guide was also a house of misinformation as well as wrong information. It also said that SMN/BLM was good for nukes, which was absolutely absurd because of the way skill levels work in XI. You can't even get an unresisted nuke in XI without the appropriate skill level, which is impossible to reach with /BLM. THF/BLM and SMN/BLM being bad have nothing to do with efficiency and everything to do with XI's skill mechanics, which XIV lacks.
Disclaimer: At 119, SMN/SCH can, however, nuke with Dark Arts with the way gear works now. It's actually really neat, some people use it in their builds.

[Preypacer]

It doesn't matter at all since there is always a superior spec. Anything less than ideal will be kicked. Remember the original xi guide that state war/whm is a good combination?

That's not nearly so commonplace as you (and others) make it sound. The only place people were that strict or demanding, was in the most difficult end-game content. This was true in FFXI, and it's true in XIV, as it is in any MMORPG out there.

For all the rest of the game, some people might be "picky" or complain if someone isn't geared as they deem "correct", but as long as people are doing their best and aren't a major liability, they're not going to get kicked.

The strict "requirements" of a small % of players, centered around a small % of the overall game content, are not reason to refuse more options to the greater %, among whom are people who would happily experiment and try out new builds.

Hell, over the course of almost 8 years, I was told all the time in XI that I had the wrong job combo, I wasn't using the optimal gear, etc. etc... but I never got kicked from a group. I even did a bit of end-game stuff, and was never kicked from those groups, either.

Also remember, there was always "one best build" for any given role, until someone took the time to experiment and try out other options, and found something that worked better. Then *that* became "the one best build". Until someone experimented and found yet another option that worked even better, etc. I lost track of how many times I saw it claimed that "setup X" was the one build to rule them all, and all else is inferior... only to have it replaced as soon as someone came along and proved otherwise.

It all boils down to group-think, and people just doing what everyone else is doing, because everyone else is doing it. Ironically, I found those quickest to say "learn how to play", in terms of character builds, were often (but not at all always) the ones who had the most to learn, because they were just following guides and playing how others told them to. Quickest way to find out if they knew what they were talking about, or just parroting what they'd been told, or read, was to simply ask them "why?". I'd ask them to explain why I wasn't geared right, or why I should be geared up the way they said. I'd ask them for specifics, numbers, etc.. Many times, they couldn't give any, and would just say "learn to play" again before dropping the subject.

[Belhi]

Also remember, there was always "one best build" for any given role, until someone took the time to experiment and try out other options, and found something that worked better. Then *that* became "the one best build". Until someone experimented and found yet another option that worked even better, etc. I lost track of how many times I saw it claimed that "setup X" was the one build to rule them all, and all else is inferior... only to have it replaced as soon as someone came along and proved otherwise.

Gah!

That sounds even worse. That's one of the reasons I left GW2. I want to play the game content, not screw around with builds.

[Purrfectstorm]

The best gear is only useful for a millisecond and not even needed on 99% of the content. Plus this game makes it too easy to catch up to the point that the most efficient way to gear up (provided you don't want/need the gear the small percentage of the time it is useful) is to just wait for the next patch. It's demotivating. Don't want to run Alexander Savage? Just wait until the next patch and you'll be given gear that raiders had to work hard to get. Of course, "work hard" is a little misleading since most of the work in my experience is finding groups that don't completely suck.

In my opinion, the best way to do vertical progression is to have more tiers that stay relevant for a longer period of time. For example:

4.0 Expert dungeons drop i300, Tomes give i320, Raid i340
4.1 Expert dungeons drop i310, Tomes i330, Raid i350

But something like this would require a big overhaul to how things are currently done (e.g. not nerfing raids until more time has passed). Also, I'm not a fan of lockouts. I'd rather have low RNG, at least then I can play at the pace I want.

The effect of the changes I would institute would probably create a larger gap between players, but I see this as a good thing, because people could more easily form groups with people at the same skill level and reaching a certain ilevel would actually feel like an accomplishment.

[AnimaAnimus]

Personally I liked how in XI I could, hunt nms, run dyna, salavage, einherjar, nyzul, etc all the while earning items directly toward or to sell or trade for items for my relic/mythic weapons. And get multiple pieces a time for multiple jobs.

Finally getting a piece of gear to drop and winning the lot was crazy exciting and you would proudly wear it around. Sure gear swaps were a pain but that was due to a bad macro system and miniscule item bag. Remember the days of only being able to carry 30 items total? Gear and other drops? And it was worth spending 1-2m gil on a crafted ring or body piece.

The best part of it, was that I knew all my hard work and time spent wasn't going to be all for naught 2 months down the line.

Even if they want to keep going vertical, it is waaaaay to fast.

[Nicobo]

....
The vertical progression needs to change drastically, or be removed in its entirety. Square-Enix needs to get off this train before it becomes the express line to blandness.
So, agree? Disagree? Whatever your thoughts, keep it polite. Those who complain the loudest usually care the most. Those who accept all, usually don't care enough.

Disagree. ^^;

This game has a macro progressing system, it is your entire character. But not limited to a single job/class,
players allocating their resouces to which job/class, spending limited ESO for which job,
farm gears for which job. how to progress your carfting / gathering jobs...etc
The weekly restrcition etc also has an effect that making players' progression to be different, otherwise everyone will have everything done at the same time.

About new players,
Most new players just want to fly on HW asap, 2.0 MSQ were not fun for them.
They should have reached lv60 in 1-2month and doing same thing as everyone.
They like to play "new released contents" but not "everyone had played except me" contents.

About the gear iLV, every patch using new gear are so good!
For example in FFXI, everyone using the Lv7 boots really odd! It was a broken system.
Ppl tho oh using old low-lv gear = horrizontal progress? but I just tho so stupid that every(except mage) job every lv still need to use this lv7 boot.
Another example, the "Peacock Charm", lv33 neck, omg I had been using this forever(except mage). This is what horrizontal progess???
Then my mage, I had 8 elemental HQ staff , and change which staff to cast the corresponding magic...
Was this completely broken system is what some ppl very missing? ^^;

....Square-Enix has some truly talented people behind the scenes creating the content we all enjoy...

I agree with this, but only when these ppl creating their games.
Now these game has been changed towarded what some players wanted,
with that said now these ppl are creating "your" game therefore the game is becoming less and less fun for "myself".

[Belhi]

I'm not talking about a honeymoon period, though. I'm talking about specific complaints from people about specific content that they find to be repeated over and over, patch after patch, without variation (beyond what it's called), even straight into 3.0. That's not "honeymoon" period. That's people saying "Okay, we've had 1-2 years of this now, and it's becoming tiresome. Can you give us something new and different next?"

You talked about the support they had at 2.0. That is called a honeymoon period. It is right after launch when everything is new and shiny. It happens with almost every new game I've played. Viewpoints naturally change as a game matures and people start to question aspects of the game that don't necessarily meet their personal expectations. That has also happened in every game Ive played.

Err... I'm not asking for FF11 2.0. Neither is anyone else, from what I've seen.

People have given specific examples of systems that FFXI had, which were fun, varied and interesting, and provided additional ways to obtain gear, aside from other means which already existed. We're saying "Hey, here's some interesting ideas they implemented in this other game, and people tended to enjoy them. Maybe you can adapt something like that to FFXIV as well, and give us more options, and ways to obtain equipment".

The desired result here is "More Variety".

AnimaAnimus summarizes it nicely in the first sentence of this post.

There's a vast difference between that, and simply wanting FF11 2.0. Please don't conflate the two.

More variety can be good. I certainly agree FF14 could benefit from more. However I would make two points.

First is that not everything people remember from FF11 will integrate well into FF14 systems. Its not the same engine and its not the same game. Alternately a lot of those ideas would likely take a lot of time and effort to implement anyway so if this is the case and they can do it you are very unlikely to see anything till 4.0 at the earliest. Anything more is probably being unrealistic on the amount of work such implementations would take.

Secondly, fun is relative. What you find fun others won't. One thing that is definitely true of players is they have very varying tastes.

I might also point out that the Diadem was them attempting some thing new so its not like they aren't trying anything. Sure it was a complete flop but they tried.

Nothing of what you just said is necessarily tied into horizontal progression. What you're describing is more Min-Maxing behavior, and that exists in any MMO where numbers are in play.

Put another way, people pull out calculators and fuss over every last digit, or the specific order of their rotations, etc, in this game. They use parsers to gauge how well they're doing, or where they have to improve to hit their absolute best numbers.... and this game most certainly doesn't have horizontal progression.

You don't have to min-max in a MMO with horizontal progression, either. I never did, in XI or any other MMO I've played. It's a choice of play style.

When I play a class I want it to work. I don't want to have to look up correct build or screw around trying to find ones that work. I want to pick something and play content with it and know that I haven't made any bad choices. I hate build experimenting. I hate trying to have to figure out what works well. I don't like playing dud, if novel, builds.

This happens in a lot of MMOs I've played with Horizontal progression. I just want to pick something and play it and know it plays well.

And if I need to look up websites to see what is works then in my view the game is flawed.

That's not min/maxing. There is a difference in playing a class how it is designed to be played and screwing around with builds trying to get something that works. Horizontal progression almost always ends up with builds that are bad or wrong. If they can exist in a game I have issue with it. That for me is poor design.

Agreed, and SE seems to be falling into that trap (again).

They seem more in touch with player concerns than most devs in the industry. The fact they addressed many peoples loudest concerns in the last live letter is a sign of that.

I certainly hope what we've seen from SE with this game does not represent the extent, or even close, of what they're capable of thinking up or implementing. If so, then, well... my concerns are even more valid.

I specifically refer to the fact that most players have little to know understanding of what is possible with game design or what potential issues can hamper it. That's not necessarily an issue with imagination. It can be an issue with engine limitations or available resources.

No more flawed than assuming the majority doesn't share their views. Further, at no point have I ever claimed to speak for a majority here.

The point is, there's a large number of people in the FFXIV community who have been voicing the same concerns, in myriad places and formats. The concerns are there. And that's just the ones openly speaking about it. I've seen plenty of people saying similar things in FC and Party chat, or even in the chat of other games I play. They're not here on the forums saying it, but they still feel that way.

Sure and their views are very valid. However rarely do people think their issues and views are in the minority and frankly the way you worded your original comments that I quoted seem to suggest you believed you were in the majority. Truth is though there is no way anyone can really do more than say what they personally feel. Speaking on behalf of community sentiment without any solid quantitive proof that your view is a match for it is flawed.

Are you presuming to speak for Yoshida? I'm not sure you're qualified to do that.

And, he has absolutely said "nope", to a number of things, in Q&As, in Live Letters, in interviews, etc. Reasons he's given have ranged from "he's afraid it would stress out the players" to "it's not how he envisions people playing the game", and various other rather weak (IMO) explanations. Regardless of his explanation, the answer still amounts to "Nope".

I'm not talking for him. Im am pretty much repeating the gist of what he said in an interview only a few weeks back. In fact, the 'I would add an new Job over an alternative way of playing the same Job' is almost a direct quote. As he said, they require about the same amount of resources to implement and balance.

Well, again, per your explanation above, you seem to be conflating "min-maxing" with "horizontal progression", and the two are not at all the same, nor are they even mutually exclusive. Min-maxing exists in any MMO, regardless of what progression model it uses.

I'm not talking about min/maxing and I know very well the difference. Im talking about the increased complexity horizontal progression often adds and the fact it can lead to situations where you can make 'wrong' builds. There is a big difference in playing a Job properly and having to construct that Job in a fashion that works well. I'm not new to horizontal progression.

And from your other response to me...

Yes, when you cherry-pick that bit by itself, and quote it out of context, it would sound pretty bad.

If you're going to quote me and then respond, please have the courtesy of quoting everything, and not just the bit you want to pick apart. Thank you.

I quoted the most relevant part for my response. Are you saying that the rest of the post had context that changed the essence of what you said? If I quoted the whole thing my response would pretty much be the same.

I hate that type of set up in MMOs. I hate situations with 'wrong' builds. I want something that works and works well and that I don't need to screw around looking things up to figure out how to put together. I don't care what others think about my build or if I get kicked. I care about my feeling towards the build. Its complexity I don't want.

[Preypacer]

You talked about the support they had at 2.0. That is called a honeymoon period. It is right after launch when everything is new and shiny. It happens with almost every new game I've played. Viewpoints naturally change as a game matures and people start to question aspects of the game that don't necessarily meet their personal expectations. That has also happened in every game Ive played.

Okay, Belhi... Look.

If you're genuinely interested in having a sane, civil conversation with me, then I'm going to have to ask you to please stop putting words in my mouth, or ignoring what I very clearly and deliberately have explained to you.

If you can't, or are unwilling to do that, then please block me, and never respond to another of my posts again, because I'd have no interest in interacting with you further.

I very clearly described a time-frame in my post of 1-2 years (even longer if we want to include everything up to 3.1, and even on into 3.2, based on what we know), with the launch of 2.0 being the very beginning point, but not the sole focus of my observation (hence why I said 1-2 years and not just "the first few months after launch"). 1 year is no longer a "honeymoon period", much less 2+ years. Regardless, nothing I said has anything to do with a "honeymoon period". It has to do with how the level of "fanaticism" and the general vibe around this game has degraded over the course of 1-2 years, due to the way SE has been repeating and regurgitating the same handful of systems over and over, from patch to patch, and even into its first expansion.

More variety can be good. I certainly agree FF14 could benefit from more. However I would make two points.

First is that not everything people remember from FF11 will integrate well into FF14 systems. Its not the same engine and its not the same game. Alternately a lot of those ideas would likely take a lot of time and effort to implement anyway so if this is the case and they can do it you are very unlikely to see anything till 4.0 at the earliest. Anything more is probably being unrealistic on the amount of work such implementations would take.

This is why I said "adapt them to FFXIV", and clearly didn't say "implement them wholesale, as-is, into FFXIV".

Again, you're ignoring what I am saying, and responding to what I'm not.

When I play a class I want it to work. I don't want to have to look up correct build or screw around trying to find ones that work. I want to pick something and play content with it and know that I haven't made any bad choices. I hate build experimenting. I hate trying to have to figure out what works well. I don't like playing dud, if novel, builds.

Okay, so you prefer to have things ready-made. Fine.

This happens in a lot of MMOs I've played with Horizontal progression.

It happens a lot in MMOs with vertical progression as well.

And if I need to look up websites to see what is works then in my view the game is flawed.

I completely disagree with this, as experimenting and finding a build that is tailored to how I enjoy playing is far more enjoyable than simply following someone else's build, or having it spelled out for me... but again, to each their own.

When you're looking up websites to "see what works", what you're finding is "what's worked for other people". And what works for other people may not necessarily work for you. Further whatever the current "build du-jour" is now could very well change again in a month down the road, at which point people either decide "well I enjoy this build, so I'll keep going with this". Or, they decide "well shoot, now that's considered the best build, I guess now I have to change over to that". That's players imposing artificial restrictions on themselves.

Every time a new viable build is discovered, it's a clear demonstration that the game allows for a variety of setups that work well across various content. It's the players who then say "No, there's no room for multiple options, no matter how valid they'd previously proven to be. There can be only one, it must be the best, and everyone must use it". A build that's worked well for many months doesn't suddenly become crap because someone found another one that works a little better. Not to mention that, over time, many builds prove to be situational at best, and not "one size fits all".

This is actually in the same vein of what I was getting at in the post you quote-mined that paragraph from. I was mocking the idea of people feeling like they had to keep changing up their entire playstyle to fit some fluid group-think "standard" of "how you're supposed to play", rather than just sticking with a build they actually enjoyed playing, and got the job done.

That's not min/maxing. There is a difference in playing a class how it is designed to be played and screwing around with builds trying to get something that works. Horizontal progression almost always ends up with builds that are bad or wrong. If they can exist in a game I have issue with it. That for me is poor design.

The thing is, "bad or wrong" can be highly subjective. Someone can have a build that is 100% functional for that person and their playstyle. I'll find it to be "bad" for me, though, because it's not built around how I enjoy playing. And the reverse could be true as well.

Again, though, understanding you prefer those details to be pre-determined, I could see how having choices might be construed as a bad thing.

I specifically refer to the fact that most players have little to know understanding of what is possible with game design or what potential issues can hamper it. That's not necessarily an issue with imagination. It can be an issue with engine limitations or available resources.

Do you know what is possible with game design, or what they can or can't accomplish within engine limitations or available resources? Are you qualified to provide a well-supported case for things that "can't be done", rather than simply "aren't being done"?

If you can't, and aren't privy to such info, then I don't see the point in making that argument in the first place. You haven't the knowledge to prove it's so, and I haven't the knowledge to say otherwise. So why even bring it up?

On the other hand, I *can* (from memory, and with enough Googling) point to examples of where Yoshida has clearly stated in the past that things players are asking for are possible, but he doesn't want to do them that way, because he envisions the game being played a very specific way. He's given such explanations for things going back to even before ARR's Alpha.

You're grasping at unknowns. I'm referring to things that have actually been said.

Sure and their views are very valid. However rarely do people think their issues and views are in the minority and frankly the way you worded your original comments that I quoted seem to suggest you believed you were in the majority. Truth is though there is no way anyone can really do more than say what they personally feel. Speaking on behalf of community sentiment without any solid quantitive proof that your view is a match for it is flawed.

No. You're doing it again.

I wrote exactly what I meant, and I meant exactly what I wrote. At no point did I say "most people". The only place my "wording" seems to suggest otherwise is in your head, because you can't seem to not put words in my mouth.

Knock it off.

Stop putting words in my mouth.I'm not talking for him. Im am pretty much repeating the gist of what he said in an interview only a few weeks back. In fact, the 'I would add an new Job over an alternative way of playing the same Job' is almost a direct quote. As he said, they require about the same amount of resources to implement and balance.

I wasn't putting words in your mouth. You made some unsubstantiated remarks about things you couldn't know, and I was pointing out that fact. If you were referencing something he'd actually said, that detail would have been helpful at the time you originally said it.

That said, it's cute how when you convey something Yoshi's said, it's relevant. Yet, when I convey something Yoshi, and many others in the FFXIV community, have said... none of that matters.

How very convenient for you.

I quoted the most relevant part for my response. Are you saying that the rest of the post had context that changed the essence of what you said? If I quoted the whole thing my response would pretty much be the same.

No, you quote-mined the part that was easiest to take out of context, and most convenient to your narrative.

Yes, if you were reading the *entire* post your quote was taken from, and doing so in good-faith, the context of it would have changed the "essence" of what I said. That's how context works, when you're not deliberately ignoring or twisting it around for your own ends.

And if you're being honest in saying that even reading it in its full context wouldn't change your answer, then you have just proven - in your own words - exactly what I questioned at the beginning of this response... that you are not interested in having a sane, civil discussion.

So, I will ask you, again, to block me and never respond to any of my posts in the future. I have no tolerance for dishonest people.