Why vertical progression is poorly implemented

[Dzian]

It's the same exact cycle they've been using since Coil and CT. 24 man raids have always been casual centric raids that allowed midcores to increase their gear level to help them clear Coil/Alex Savage, while also allowing Casuals to reach the current raid tier level just as it was about to become the prior raid tier level. That way when the new raid tier level comes out, a casual who wants to become hard/midcore can easily transition and avoid the Can't Catch Up problem. In fact this is the same cycle that's been in WoW since Wrath of the Lich King, and was designed specifically to avoid the Can't Catch Up problem that existed in Burning Crusade.

that only highlights why players aren't motivated to do more challenging content I think.

[Ibi]

Which to me means that they planned for everyone to be at 210 before 3.2. that can't be right,

Why not?

Even if 3.2 comes in the first week of February (2/2/16), you'd have sufficient Tomes of Esoterics to be in full i200 if you'd done just three expert and trial roulettes per week (since the tomes were unlocked), and have enough mhachi farthings to upgrade all you can to i210 by running Void Ark ten of the twelve weeks.

[Dzian]

Why not?

Even if 3.2 comes in the first week of February (2/2/16), you'd have sufficient Tomes of Esoterics to be in full i200 if you'd done just three expert and trial roulettes per week (since the tomes were unlocked), and have enough mhachi farthings to upgrade all you can to i210 by running Void Ark ten of the twelve weeks.

Think you missed my point. Which was....

If I do all the latest and greatest content including the really challenging stuff (a4s), I'll be going into 3.2 at about i210
If I do none of the content and just ran the occasional expert or something, I'll be going into 3.2 at about i210

Logically I see that as a problem. Where's the incentive to do the content?

[Alahra]

Logically I see that as a problem. Where's the incentive to do the content?

Getting there earlier, enjoying overcoming difficult challenges, creating optimized gearsets, and so on. And indeed, if newer players, returning players, or non-raiders ever decide they want to get into difficult content, it's actually quite important that the game provides for ways to them to catch up to those that were on the cutting edge.

That's the whole purpose of the catch up patches and part of why the game "resets" every so often. The developers want a wide variety of players to be at or close to i210 at the start of 3.2 so that the maximum number of players has the ability to get into the new raid content if they so choose.

[Cynric]

snip

Well the problem with this pacing was already discussed by Square in the last live letter. Thing is you can't go by Ilvl anyway.


If they hadn't introduced Thordan to help players get through A3S the highest weapon level a casual player could get right now would be 200, 210 if they have a lot of time to devote to the game with the relic questline, but that's time dependent. An average player with limited time won't have their relic before 3.2 with the current quest line.

So a player that has done absolutely no endgame whatsoever will be sitting at much less crit/det/speed/etc. than a player who has cleared A4S and farmed gear through savage.

I myself have not stepped foot in savage because it did not seem worth it and I've had limited time this raid tier. I'm sitting with the thordan weapon and fully upgraded everything at ilvl 208. I have one 210 ring as I've never been in savage even once. My weapon is 205 as I've never been in savage even once.

so the difference between zero raiding and going through the trial of raiding through A4S is currently, 5 levels on your weapon or 10 if you didn't even do thordan(0 if you have time to dedicate to relic) and 10 levels on your second ring. Along with the inability to customize your very unimportant secondary stats.

In the past the difference was exactly the same as it is now, however the raids themselves were more fun. Coil 1-13 if you cleared it when it was relevant the only thing you had over a player who did not touch coil was a single ring, and 5 levels on your weapon. However there was one small difference.

Currently players who have completed Alexander normal have full access to the (in my opinion terrible) style of gear that Gordias savage also drops, lacking the ability to dye it.

When we cleared coil, no one else was walking around with the same looking gear we had unless they also cleared coil, now that isn't the case. That's about the only difference between 2.0 and 3.0 I can think of aside from savage just being harder to do.

The current problems with progression seem pretty well known by Square.

1. Alex isn't worth it.
2. Relic questline was made to be similar difficulty due to weapon level of final step, however neither is worth the work.
3.Alex wasn't interesting
4. Normal mode killed the story progression of savage
5. Rewards from raids are too close to rewards from tomes
6. Older content isn't being done and newer content is dead on arrival
7. Jobs aren't fully balanced causing issues with progression of certain combinations(eg.PLD/DRK)
8.Lack of choice between upgrades. Either do the hardest content, or don't progress your character.
9. Lack of customization between our characters. Monk A is exactly the same as Monk B,

There's a lot of issues right now that goes hand in hand with progression

tl;dr : The reason to progress now is the exact same as it was in 2.0. Things just aren't balanced well progression wise to make those incentives as worth it.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

I'm lost. So you want a stat system that's extremely convoluted? Personally I'd rather complementary stats buffs like decreased Jump cool down to be baked into the class, and have the customization come in the form of being able to pick and choose traits from a pool. But even that won't be immune to the number crunchers.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

On another note, literally every single one of those stats except subtle blow,CHR, and Evasion are aalready baked into our gear, simplified as Accuracy, Determination, and Parry. Triple attack is I'm the game in the form of a cool down, and physical damage taken down is literally just Parry (guess how many actually want that). Subtle Blow also wouldn't work due to how enemy skills work in this game. What are you asking for exactly?

[Ibi]

physical damage taken down is literally just Parry (guess how many actually want that)

Just to nitpick, parry and PDT, though similar in that they both reduce the overall damage you take, are extremely different things.

The main issue with parry is that you cannot predict when you will or will not parry, so a proactive healer must assume that their tank will not parry a given attack, and heal them accordingly. When a parry does occur, it simply generates overheal.

PDT, on the other hand, is active for every single hit, so the damage will always be reduced accordingly, and healers are able to account for it. PDT would probably be the most desirable stat in XIV if it existed.

[Kore_Hyperion]

I stopped raiding because there's no point to it when I can get the same ilvl gear without having to do it.

Although I must admit, I am enjoying the feeling of not having to be online at specific days and times in order to run with a raid static.

[Purrfectstorm]

If something is that overpowered that it can last for years then what is the point in developing new gear at all?

You either make later gear irrelevant , or make current gear irrelevant.

If something increased Cure by 10% or increased Halone enmity by some extent. But it wasn't as good as Mind or Strength do you think anyone would use it? If something increased the damage of a skill vastly over the value of a main stat like Strength , then what would be the point in Strength?

FFXIV isn't designed for what you guys are suggesting.

I'll agree that the way progression currently works isn't the best. But neither is horizontal progression. Nothing is perfect and exchanging one way for the other wouldn't solve anything.

I have an idea that might work.

We have 12-13 gear slots:
- weapon
- head
- body
- hands
- waist
- legs
- feet
- neck
- ear
- wrist
- ring
- ring
- shield

You could have each raid buff only 4 of the slots instead of all 12 or 13. Each turn could buff a piece (Turn 1: head, Turn 2: hands, etc.) Or you could get multiple upgrades for a single turn (Turn 1: head, hands, wrist, ring, etc.) In the latter case, the later turns would offer additional upgrades. So you could buff hands 4x, head 4x, etc. This would preserve the extreme vertical progression for the people who are really into that but still allow people to keep their BiS pieces for longer. Every raid would offer gear improvements but each BiS piece would be good for roughly 6 patches (about a year and a half).

My solution is very basic and really not that imaginative. I'm sure game developers could come up with something even better. Regardless, I think they should do something different. Gear becomes obsolete too fast. Raiders don't get to enjoy having the best gear long enough to make raiding very motivating. I don't raid much now but I know I would raid more if the next cycle of tome gear wasn't going to be better than raid gear.

Edit: I just had another idea. You could also have gear that gave buffs to non-battle content (or could be traded in or used to augment other gear with non-combat buffs). Some examples: +MGP earned, increased Triple Triad drop rate, +Wolf Marks, Move - Find Item, increased movement speed (outside of combat), +crafting/gathering stats, +choco exp earned (regular or racing), and so on.

There's no limit to the amount of options that would be a lot more interesting than what we have. I like the idea of old gear being consumed to augment new gear with cool perks. It would also keep a steady supply of people doing older content (to add perks to their new gear)