"Dark Knight: Tanking On The Edge"

[Syzygian]

Apart from Fallen </3, you could've asked, in regards to the oGCD (Since Syzygian has answered you other question reasonably well)(If you're in the OT position, w/o blood weapon you're generally looking at 2 SS combo's per DA usage).

"DP < CS < SaE < RE < BW < DA < LB < PL" is a good list, however from my own testing I've found that DA and LB have two of the shortest animation locks, while BW weapon is second highest.
YMMV, but it also depends on which way you cancel and what GCD you're cancelling off of.

Cancelling off of SE usually only gets you one (or something like DP>DA>GCD), but off of DE/PS tends to be a lot safer. Also of note, is that you can GritOFF into any oGCD if you time it right, but grit on is a gcd which you can't usually double out of.

Also, you can maybe double LB/DP>DA during blood weapon, but that'll be the most of it.

In regards to future testing, I've found DA to have the shortest animation lock outside of DP (god bless DP), so I frequently use it for my secondary ogcd's to force the others to resolve faster (like fire weaving). Not sure if anyone else uses it like I do.

Editing this in, its useful.

[Startropic]

How do you handle no Grit threat? I use a PS combo at the start with Grit on then turn it off, but good dps always creep up and I'm forced to use 1-2 PS combos to keep em off of me.

[Violette]

snpi.

On which fights?

On A1S,A3S, I usually do 2 (2!) DAPS combos at the start before dropping grit. This is because the initial burst is extremely high and as you said, dps/healers will creep up, so without a ninja (if I have a ninja it's one combo), establishing a strong enmity lead is much better that the 1 combo of less damage I lose out on, since I do not have to worry about it for the rest of the fight usually.

As for dps gaining on you, don't be afraid to throw out the occasional power slash (x5) or DAPS (x6) combo while out of grit in order to maintain a lead. Something like DASE>DE>DE>PA>DASE (If low on MP), will do alrightish damage while mixing in the enmity combo. For maximum mp gen, I recommend throwing in a PA during BW phases, since the mp lost from that is minimal due to BW's return on physical hit.

Hope this helps (also turn on DD during BW so you parry more and get more low blows SO EVEN
MORE
MP)

[Syzygian]

How do you handle no Grit threat? I use a PS combo at the start with Grit on then turn it off, but good dps always creep up and I'm forced to use 1-2 PS combos to keep em off of me.

I'm not going to assume you're speaking about raids, but if you are, the same principles apply to raids as to dungeon bosses and such for the most part.
1-2 Grit PS combos at the start should be more than sufficient IF you are of equal gear to your DPS and in full slaying, or 4/1 slaying/fending or a mix of that and melds. I have no idea what kind of gear these DPS are wearing relative to yours so I'd need more information to give you accurate advice.

I will say it is not the end of the world if you have to throw out an extra PS combo here and there, but I would not advise that you make it part of your rotation or habit, its strictly on an "as-needed" basis. Your DPS can get as close to you as they please and this is a good thing; it means the group as a whole is doing good DPS. "Creeping up" is fine as long as they don't actually rip off you. If they are actually in danger of passing you and not just riding the line like a good DPS should you'll need to PS unless they actually are paying attention and use an aggro dump if they've got one. Grit or not, PS is a big DPS loss - you're not just losing the 10 potency difference between it and Delirium, you're losing 884 MP, which is at LEAST 140 potency (DASE, factoring in the 884 from SyS minus the DA).

As for DAPS, I'm going to have to 100% disagree with Violet here, as DAPS is a ludicrous MP loss for only 300 potency of enmity (the difference in modifiers, which is actually 5.5x vs. 6.5x, not 5 and 6, is very small in the scope of your combo. Weaving a DA CS in your PS combo is actually more enmity for WAY better damage and MP efficiency). DAPS is for emergencies or if you have a BB-happy WAR OT that you just tank-swapped with, or I guess for hunts. Its not even as much hate as a Zerked Butcher's Block.

To put it in perspective, if your DPS are gaining on you that hard, DAPS will only delay your loss of enmity by about a single GCD. You lose 884 MP every time you use PS.

PS combo: -884MP +2570enmity

DAPS combo: -2652MP +2870enmity

PS combo x2: -1768MP +5140enmity.

^You can see from this that DAPS is extremely MP and enmity inefficient. With 2 PS combos, you can get 100% more enmity for double the MP cost, but with a DAPS, you get only about 15% more enmity for TRIPLE the MP cost. I tend to drop Grit after the first PS, and check the enmity meters, and then do an out-of-Grit PS if they still look a little shady.

What's most important here, is gear. If you are undergeared compared to your DPS you may not want to turn off Grit in the first place, but if you're confident, you can, but you may need to PS more. If you're wearing fending gear, the same applies (although this will be a non-issue in less than a week).

TLDR, two PS at the start of the fight then drop Grit. This is enough 90% of the time. If you have a NIN shadewalkering you or are overgeared, you can just do 1 PS, or just pull out of Grit altogether.

Make sure you are frontloading your DPS and dumping all of your DoTs and oGCDs at the very beginning as well. DRK has a very short burst, but it is insanely powerful.

[AlexiIvaniskavich]

.......TLDR, two PS at the start of the fight then drop Grit. This is enough 90% of the time. If you have a NIN shadewalkering you or are overgeared, you can just do 1 PS, or just pull out of Grit altogether.

Make sure you are frontloading your DPS and dumping all of your DoTs and oGCDs at the very beginning as well. DRK has a very short burst, but it is insanely powerful.

I love my new NIN!

A nice thing about using PS combo twice, by the time i am moving out of Grit, Blood Price is just about to fall off and I can seamlessly roll into blood weapon with little to no overlap on the 2.

[Violette]

As for DAPS, I'm going to have to 100% disagree with Violet here, as DAPS is a ludicrous MP loss for only 300 potency of enmity (the difference in modifiers, which is actually 5.5x vs. 6.5x, not 5 and 6, is very small in the scope of your combo. Weaving a DA CS in your PS combo is actually more enmity for WAY better damage and MP efficiency). DAPS is for emergencies or if you have a BB-happy WAR OT that you just tank-swapped with, or I guess for hunts. Its not even as much hate as a Zerked Butcher's Block.

If your mana is so tight that you can't start with a DAPS combo and still have mana for DACnS and DASE, I suggest readjusting your opener.

Given the amount of MP regen you'll have in very few seconds, there is little reason not to start with a huge DPS/Enmity dump, especially if you can maintain your dps and mp usage without adverse effects.

Also, while it is nice to compare the enmity bonuses, gotta remember DAPS+PS is not enmity inefficient, and MP inefficiencies only matter if you can't control your MP.

The point I'm trying to make is, efficiencies only matter if inefficiencies will negatively impact the entire fight. If being MP inefficient will result in you losing Darkside, then yes. You should not use DAPS over PS. If using DAPS will result in you being unable to use DP/DACnS/DASE during the opener, then once again yes, you should not use DAPS. But if using DAPS will only result in a minor (0.2?) dps loss over time, for an extra enmity it can be worth it. Same reason warrior's using Storm's Path over BB or SE during progression is okay. It's "tp inefficient", but it also may be needed. It may not, but you don't know until your farming.

[Syzygian]

snip

Its not that mana is tight, its that its valuable and using it on PS is a net loss. Its just inefficient, so why do it? Its not that you'll MP floor if you do it, I used to do it, and I thought there was nothing wrong with it, because just drop Grit, pop BW after and you're good right? Well sure, but I did less DPS for more MP - a cardinal sin of DRK.

There's no such thing as a free lunch, and that MP is better spent. Almost any DRK main will tell you that DAPS is a waste of perfectly good mana outside of certain niche situations. When you drop Grit and start burning through your MP on DASE you can spam it for longer and perhaps even close the gap to your next BP or BW, assuming you don't need to stop and put up DE (I'll confess I use DE a lot like WARs use Path - only if it'll actually mitigate something meaningfully).

MP efficiency does matter, not because someone like myself that realizes DAPS is wasteful must for some reason not be able to control their mana consumption(???), but because the MP could be used on something else. DAPS, in a vacuum, is literally 3 DASEs lost (There's an opportunity MP cost of 884 per PS because no SyS, then the 1768 MP you spend DAing it, which totals three DASE combos which have a net cost of 884 MP (884-1768) each). So that means you'll do 3 less DASEs and 3 more DEs, which is a total loss of (800-680)*3) = 360 potency... making DPS lost greater than enmity gained ((300*6.5)-(300*5.5) = 300). =/

This thread is a guide, so I'm going to encourage playing optimally and maximally, and while the net loss may be small over the course of an entire fight, I personally would question someone trying to help others play a job well if they were advocating playing suboptimally here and there because it "won't matter over the course of a fight." Its like telling someone to delay using DACS for the entire first minute of a 10 minute encounter, which is probably a similarly small DPS loss, but just... why?

Anyway, perhaps the most damning fact of this argument, as I touched upon in my previous post, is that if you are playing with a group of skilled players that ARE going to catch up with you on enmity over the course of several minutes of being out of Grit and not using your enmity combo, DAPS does not remedy this. It is literally only 3 auto-attacks-worth more of enmity over regular PS, and if you find that you're needing to PS later in the fight to top off your hate, DAPS won't change that, only delay it by a few moments - considering this, DAPS is a waste even against the purpose for which it is intended.

P.S. Also, the comparison to WAR's BB/SE vs SP is fallacious as these choices have party-wide implications beyond enmity, whereas the choice between PS and DAPS is strictly a very simple question of personal DPS and MP efficiency with a clean-cut mathematical answer.

[LDR]

Just wanted to drop quick thanks for taking to time to write all this out and also that opener.

Recently got DRK to 60 like 3 days ago via MSQ on an alt and I had to MT the base thoridan trial for story [because my co tank was a WAR freshly through 3.0 as well who refused to try] and the DPS comp was mostly i205 across the board; and there was me as a i145 in full Vit spec so I was rather nervous about agro fights.

But nope, followed the Boss OP and held a good lead and was able to comfortably go into DE and DASE rotations; granted i didnt drop grit but then with that ilvl discrepancy i would be mad to. Sometimes i did an extra PS combo but im not sure i neded to tbh, chalk it up to an old habit from my WAR days.

Still, thanks again this guide has been a big help in leveling and feeling confident with DRK despite things like gear.

[Syzygian]

Assuming a 2.4s GCD, DRK OTs now take approximately 6.5 minutes to TP floor with full BW uptime and a SC-DASE-DE-DASE-DE rotation. An MT rotation with Grit (no BW) TP floors in approximately 4.2 minutes with the same rotation and GCD time. Will edit this in appropriate section soon.

Still, thanks again this guide has been a big help in leveling and feeling confident with DRK despite things like gear.

Np bud. Glad I could help. I'll be editing this sometime this week to reflect more of the 3.2 changes.

[Adera]

Anyone else notice issues with MP management after the patch? I can't quite put my finger on it but somehow I feel I have less MP regen than I did before.