WAR 4.0

[Merkava]

And if you just "bring all the other tanks up to WARs level" (an often parroted response that I don't think anyone has actually thought out to a reasonable or realistic conclusion.

The problem is that when you think, "bring tanks to WARs level" you probably think about buffing damage and outright cloning WARs properties into DRK and PLD and that just isn't necessary at all. The reason WAR is so "well balanced" or "well designed" is because a lot of it skills are balanced to be useful as both an OT and MT, something DRK and PLD are horribly lacking. Vengeance and Raw Intuition? Stacks for your Triple Fell Cleave. Equilibrium? TP Recovery when OTing, HP when MTing. There are just very few skills in the WAR toolbox that are ever useless at any given time, regardless of what the Warrior is doing.

On the other hand PLD and DRK have a large numbers of skill that are just rendered useless the moment they decided to change from MT to OT (or vice-versa). DRK suffers from this the most. What do you use Dark Dance for when OTing? Reprisal? That's useless. When MTing you can't use Blood Weapon while Grit is on, forcing DRK's to treat Grit like Herpes. The duality skills have between OT and MT position is something that has been horribly implemented, one of the best planned out skills in their arsenal is Carve and Spit as it actually offers the sort of dual utility tanks need in this game. Why not allow DRK's to use Blood Weapon while on grit but with a different effect than when Grit is off? Why not just make Reprisal an oGCD that has its timer reduced by X seconds whenever you successfully parry? (Allowing DRK's to use it while OTing and more frequently when MTing). Why is Abyssal Drain so useless in most raids?

PLD's? It is a bit different but they need their utility buffed enormously and again skills need to be planned out to be useful while MTing AND OTing. SE clearly had this idea when they introduced skills like Clemency, Divine Veil and Cover but it's so half-assed that it needs some sort of overhaul. Why does Divine Veil require a heal to activate? It makes zero sense. Why does clemency scale of Spell Speed? Why can it be interrupted so easily since a tank ALWAYS takes damage? Why is cover so horribly situational? Give it extra benefits or reduce its cooldown. Bulwark is a joke and Tempered Will is useless most of the time (useful when needed but that’s situational). Again, like I mentioned before, PLD needs skill to have some sort of usage while both OTing and MTing, they have a DPS and a Tank stance, why can't their skills change a bit whenever they change their stances to reflect what they are actually doing? Maybe have Tempered Will work somewhat like Equilibrium and offer the PLD TP refresh when OTing and HP refresh when MTing? PLDs need their utility boosted significantly.

The point is that ultimately skills need to be designed in a way that they aid the tank in their duality (OT and MT), WAR is perfectly designed in this sense while DRK and PLD are just not. I mean, in theory balance between DRK and WAR is perfect (WAR has better OT damage and DRK has better MT damage) but in the end WAR always wins out because the rigid design of DRK just doesn't make it very flexible, same for PLD but to a lesser extent. PLD has crap DPS? Fine, but buff their utility ENORMOUSLY, make them like BRDs/MCHs, the lowest damage of all the tanks with the best utility (making them desirable) and for the love of god, fix their TP issues.

This can all be done without making everyone a WAR clone, does WAR have issues? Yes, it definitely does. Equilibrium is OP as heck (it should be a 90s cooldown at LEAST) and Path is incredibly powerful considering it reduces ALL damage DIRECTLY (unlike DRK and PLD, who decrease the STAT, making it a less efficient reduction), 10% STR/INT reduction =/= 10% less physical/magic damage. Path should, perhaps, have its efficiency halved.

TL;DR – All tanks should be balanced to take into account both their role as OT and MT, skills should reflect this duality. Currently WAR is the only tank that does this and this is the main reason why it's the king of tanks. The solution to everything isn't MOAR DPS.

[Syzygian]

snip

This is actually a really well-reasoned and thought-out response and one of the few I've gotten that sounds like it was written by someone that's actually played all 3 tanks at endgame and is even-handed, and not toxic, snarky, horn-tooting, PLD/DRK-shitting WAR sass, so thank you for that. Seriously. /notsarcasm

On an unrelated note:

[Shurrikhan]

TL;DR – All tanks should be balanced to take into account both their role as OT and MT, skills should reflect this duality. Currently WAR is the only tank that does this and this is the main reason why it's the king of tanks. The solution to everything isn't MOAR DPS.

And yet more DPS allows a tank to do the same numbers without sacrificing its tanking skills for a minor, minor dps gain. If people were just more comfortable with tank soft-swaps on CD in the first place, you'd likely get more raid dps out of just using Vengeance and Raw Intuition as, shocker, mitigation tools. Pretty much any time that's not the case, you're heavily overgeared or the fight's white or just more frequent-interval damage is undertuned (one of the chief complaints of tanks and healers alike). I've no issue with leaving WAR as the one tank that can choose to waste its MT set for a generally less efficient OT gain.

I'd be cool with seeing skills have a dual benefit that favors OTing or whatnot, but wasting a 15s 30% or a 20s 20% miti just for abandon stacks is not what I'd call a good example.

[Merkava]

@ Syzygian: lol, 10/10 for that picture. I do hope balance changes are made as improving other tanks can only benefit the community as a whole, it's just a pity when peoples e-pens get in the way of productive discussion.

And yet more DPS allows a tank to do the same numbers without sacrificing its tanking skills for a minor, minor dps gain. If people were just more comfortable with tank soft-swaps on CD in the first place, you'd likely get more raid dps out of just using Vengeance and Raw Intuition as, shocker, mitigation tools. Pretty much any time that's not the case, you're heavily overgeared or the fight's white or just more frequent-interval damage is undertuned (one of the chief complaints of tanks and healers alike). I've no issue with leaving WAR as the one tank that can choose to waste its MT set for a generally less efficient OT gain.

I'd be cool with seeing skills have a dual benefit that favors OTing or whatnot, but wasting a 15s 30% or a 20s 20% miti just for abandon stacks is not what I'd call a good example.

Keep in mind that I didn't suggest other tanks had to have a stack system like WAR does, also let's go over a few small bits about tanking before I give my response to that. Tanks have a few priorities they should always follow, ie...

1) Enmity
2) Mitigation
3) DPS

1 or 2 can never be less important than 3, 1 and 2 are rarely mutually exclusive; but, what people don't often realize is that 1, 2 and 3 are not mutually exclusive at all, if the tank knows what they are doing. If a tank burns a cooldown only to not have it ready when they need it then they made a bad choice, period. A tank should never sacrifice their chance of survival for the sake of higher DPS. So, for example, burning your cooldowns early and not having them ready for the tankbuster is just inexcusable tank-fail. That doesn't mean, in the case of WAR, that you should never use your cooldowns CDs for extra DPS, as long as you know you'll have them ready when the time comes.

Examples:
Thordan EX: WAR has 3 jobs as OT...
1) Tank one of the Knight Adds.
2) Tank Spear of Fury in Phase 5.
3) Pick up Thordan if the MT dies.
I start the fight with Triple fell Cleave and I DO burn Vengeance and Raw Intuition BEFORE Phase 1 is over. I, however, burn Vengeance first in order to ensure that its ALWAYS up by the time the Knight Adds spawn, there is no problem with this as I have it ready when I need it. I also have it ready for Phase 5 (along IB and Thrill of Battle). And I usually keep vengeance in cooldown past this point in order to ensure I can swap with the MT in case of any misfortune. There is nothing wrong burning CDs there, as long as its ready when you need it.

A1S:
I need vengeance up by the time the tank buster kicks in, so I start with a double fell Cleave opener (instead of triple). I burn Vengeance AND raw intuition pre-pull and they are always up when I need it. Again, it's all a matter of proper battle planning.

And to be clear, triple fell cleave is not a "small DPS gain", it is a HUGE dps gain. One of the key reasons MT war loose a lot of DPS, as windows for triple fell cleave and much more limited (on top of having to sacrifice it for IB). Again, I did not say everyone should become a WAR clone, what I said is that many skills should be tuned to function in both an OT and MT position. Similar to how Equilibrium changes it effect depending if you are in Tank or DPS stance. WAR is the only tank with a stack system anyway, DRK and PLD don't need it.

[Kuwagami]

On an unrelated note:

Not sure if serious or not (sarcasm isn't my forte) so I'll answer anyway

Grit is kin to courage, determination. Guts, if you may.

[Syzygian]

Not sure if serious or not (sarcasm isn't my forte) so I'll answer anyway

Grit is kin to courage, determination. Guts, if you may.

Vinny is speaking for every good MT DRK who has been asked to turn on Grit unnecessarily.

I.E. joke :P

[Iagainsti]

This is actually a really well-reasoned and thought-out response and is even-handed, and not toxic, snarky, horn-tooting, PLD/DRK-shitting WAR sass, so thank you for that. Seriously. /notsarcasm

This statement made me laugh, due to so many of your posts are so snarky towards the Warrior class.

Both tanks have an increased DPS burden/learning curve just in different areas. For the best tank in the game, WARs sure are defensive about their seemingly impregnable throne, and above all, they can't seem to defend it without woefully underselling the other two tanks.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ets-nerf-WAR-D

Basically, WAR mains, this is my message to you: Its okayyyyy *pet pet* for your job to have drawbacks and areas where its less than optimal.

I could do this all day xD

#Delicious #Forums4life

[Kuwagami]

Vinny is speaking for every good MT DRK who has been asked to turn on Grit unnecessarily.

I.E. joke :P

ooooooh gotcha

[Syzygian]

snip

Funny how things taken out of context can be used for... snark...

The dude had good points and he debated with me like a person instead of getting all uppity or caustic just because I suggested WAR might be just a little bit much in some areas. I respect that. And he also managed to do it without completely shitcanning the other tanks or flopping his e-peen onto my face.

You should give that a try instead of being vindictive and digging up posts from literally *months* ago. #GetOverIt #NotThatIntoYou

The fact is, I am far from the only person to have ever thought that WAR was overpowered or unbalancing to the game in certain ways, and to have had opinions based on that. With the exception of folks like Merkava the response has always been unbridled vitriol, rudeness, butthurt, and, well, snark, instead of reasonable discussion, so you'll excuse me if I learned my snark from the best

[Iagainsti]

Funny how things taken out of context can be used for... snark...

The dude had good points and he debated with me like a person instead of getting all uppity or caustic just because I suggested WAR might be just a little bit much in some areas. I respect that. And he also managed to do it without completely shitcanning the other tanks or flopping his e-peen onto my face.

You should give that a try instead of being vindictive and digging up posts from literally *months* ago. #GetOverIt #NotThatIntoYou

Context.... xD the fallacy of your statement is even more comical than the irony of your previous one.

#godspeed