Thread: WAR 4.0

Originally Posted by Merkava

snip

This is actually a really well-reasoned and thought-out response and one of the few I've gotten that sounds like it was written by someone that's actually played all 3 tanks at endgame and is even-handed, and not toxic, snarky, horn-tooting, PLD/DRK-shitting WAR sass, so thank you for that. Seriously. /notsarcasm

On an unrelated note:

Originally Posted by Merkava

TL;DR – All tanks should be balanced to take into account both their role as OT and MT, skills should reflect this duality. Currently WAR is the only tank that does this and this is the main reason why it's the king of tanks. The solution to everything isn't MOAR DPS.

And yet more DPS allows a tank to do the same numbers without sacrificing its tanking skills for a minor, minor dps gain. If people were just more comfortable with tank soft-swaps on CD in the first place, you'd likely get more raid dps out of just using Vengeance and Raw Intuition as, shocker, mitigation tools. Pretty much any time that's not the case, you're heavily overgeared or the fight's white or just more frequent-interval damage is undertuned (one of the chief complaints of tanks and healers alike). I've no issue with leaving WAR as the one tank that can choose to waste its MT set for a generally less efficient OT gain.

I'd be cool with seeing skills have a dual benefit that favors OTing or whatnot, but wasting a 15s 30% or a 20s 20% miti just for abandon stacks is not what I'd call a good example.

@ Syzygian: lol, 10/10 for that picture. I do hope balance changes are made as improving other tanks can only benefit the community as a whole, it's just a pity when peoples e-pens get in the way of productive discussion.

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

And yet more DPS allows a tank to do the same numbers without sacrificing its tanking skills for a minor, minor dps gain. If people were just more comfortable with tank soft-swaps on CD in the first place, you'd likely get more raid dps out of just using Vengeance and Raw Intuition as, shocker, mitigation tools. Pretty much any time that's not the case, you're heavily overgeared or the fight's white or just more frequent-interval damage is undertuned (one of the chief complaints of tanks and healers alike). I've no issue with leaving WAR as the one tank that can choose to waste its MT set for a generally less efficient OT gain.

I'd be cool with seeing skills have a dual benefit that favors OTing or whatnot, but wasting a 15s 30% or a 20s 20% miti just for abandon stacks is not what I'd call a good example.

Keep in mind that I didn't suggest other tanks had to have a stack system like WAR does, also let's go over a few small bits about tanking before I give my response to that. Tanks have a few priorities they should always follow, ie...

1) Enmity
2) Mitigation
3) DPS

1 or 2 can never be less important than 3, 1 and 2 are rarely mutually exclusive; but, what people don't often realize is that 1, 2 and 3 are not mutually exclusive at all, if the tank knows what they are doing. If a tank burns a cooldown only to not have it ready when they need it then they made a bad choice, period. A tank should never sacrifice their chance of survival for the sake of higher DPS. So, for example, burning your cooldowns early and not having them ready for the tankbuster is just inexcusable tank-fail. That doesn't mean, in the case of WAR, that you should never use your cooldowns CDs for extra DPS, as long as you know you'll have them ready when the time comes.

Examples:
Thordan EX: WAR has 3 jobs as OT...
1) Tank one of the Knight Adds.
2) Tank Spear of Fury in Phase 5.
3) Pick up Thordan if the MT dies.
I start the fight with Triple fell Cleave and I DO burn Vengeance and Raw Intuition BEFORE Phase 1 is over. I, however, burn Vengeance first in order to ensure that its ALWAYS up by the time the Knight Adds spawn, there is no problem with this as I have it ready when I need it. I also have it ready for Phase 5 (along IB and Thrill of Battle). And I usually keep vengeance in cooldown past this point in order to ensure I can swap with the MT in case of any misfortune. There is nothing wrong burning CDs there, as long as its ready when you need it.

A1S:
I need vengeance up by the time the tank buster kicks in, so I start with a double fell Cleave opener (instead of triple). I burn Vengeance AND raw intuition pre-pull and they are always up when I need it. Again, it's all a matter of proper battle planning.

And to be clear, triple fell cleave is not a "small DPS gain", it is a HUGE dps gain. One of the key reasons MT war loose a lot of DPS, as windows for triple fell cleave and much more limited (on top of having to sacrifice it for IB). Again, I did not say everyone should become a WAR clone, what I said is that many skills should be tuned to function in both an OT and MT position. Similar to how Equilibrium changes it effect depending if you are in Tank or DPS stance. WAR is the only tank with a stack system anyway, DRK and PLD don't need it.

Originally Posted by Syzygian

Multiple Snips

Originally Posted by Iagainsti

Multiple Snips

And this, folks, is why I come to these forums with a bag of popcorn.

P.S. Nice to see where your new signature comes from Iagainsti!

Originally Posted by MPNZ

So, why not make it so that Shield Oath buffs the other party members damage because the enemy is supposed to be distracted by them, and because PLD is a shield, making it so that cover is a skill that players want to use.

That's already happening! It's called melee landing positionals and not miss attacks because of accuracy bonuses on flank/rear!

But I agree with you that DRK is a whole big can of messy worms.

On topic, I still demand WAR gets a shield in 4.0! Learns Cover, equilibrium becomes AoE so it heals party HP or fills party TP based on stance. Homlgang lasting 10 seconds and not requiring a target. Also, merge fell cleave with IB, steel cyclone with Decimate and add 50% heal, and finally make Unchained available in Deliverance as a 30% damage reduction defensive CD! Mhm mhm.. #TankBalance

While at it, delete the other two tanks. They're not needed..... Probably the other DPS too, WAR is enough. ^^ #WARForLife.

Okay okay, the last 2 paragraphs are sarcasm. Please don't sue me!

Give war a dps lb while in deliverance called "Super Fell Cleave" that just kills everything. Not just the boss...but everything.

I get cheap thrills for calling people to account.

#onlyhuman ¯\_(ツ)_/¯