4Gamer Interview with Yoshi-P!

[Kaurie]

As salty as I am with SE right now, he makes a point. I much rather have new jobs to play then making roles within a job. The point of the Job system in the first place is to make you excel in a certain aspect. If we were to go to a skill tree like system, it would basically be using the Class system again which we already have in the game. It did not work out as planned as you can see.


People do go to what is the best, and in doing so they do have to balance the content around what is technically the best. I can imagine that being incredibly hard to balance, especially if you have 20+ jobs in the future that this game will inevitably have. SE already does a nice job in offering different type of jobs in the same role. Try a different feeling job while in the same role. Are they well balanced? That is another topic.

Again, you put too much faith in the community. People who are relevant to end game are going to pick what is best, always. I wouldn't attempt to sugar coat it, that is the reality of people. They will find what is the best and go with it.

Not to mention, this is a game where you can switch jobs on the spot. In other MMO's, you are usually stuck on one class, but in turn gives you options to make them unique, which is still flawed since if you are taking end game seriously, people will expect you to go on the tree that has you performing at your best. I have done end game in FFXI, WoW, and this game. People expect you to go a certain route if you are taking end game seriously. That is just the reality of it.

tl;dr - Too much work on the developers end for little payback and more troubles.

To counter your points.

1. Not everyone takes part in end-game. Didn't they say like 1/3 players have beat Alex normal last they released numbers, that's nevermind Savage content. So that everyone will want the best is a bit of a stretch.
2. Some people, such as myself, find it fun to experiment with builds and come up with something that works best for us. I did this with Guild Wars 1 and 2, and never had any issues keeping up with content. I also do this with my rotations, I refuse to go on and read guides on how to play my job. I spent the first week or so of 3.0 playing with SMN and making my own rotation, and I do fairly well with it.
3. I think that job specs don't have to have a best/worst, and can be balanced the way the jobs are currently balanced. One aspect may provide more raw DPS, while another provides more Raid DPS etc. Perhaps not 1 job spec will always be better, but it will vary depending on your group composition.
4. I take part int he end-game community, and almost everyone says to play what you want. On the very cusp of progression, things are bit crazier, but that changes after a couple of weeks.
5. The switching jobs on the spot has actually turned out to be the most limiting aspect of this game. Not only can I not swap specs to adjust my gameplay as I please, but I can't gear more than one job. If I am a SMN in raiding content, that is all I will be. I could level an alt, but the story gating is huge. It's a lot easier to have alt classes in other games that can all take part in the various content and be appropriately geared up.

Here is a potential method for Specs on my main job Summoner:

Disease Master -> This summoner is most like the current one. Egi is not very powerful, most of the damage comes from DoTs and Fester/Bane.

Pet Master -> DoTs are either not part of this, or are significantly weakened. Job skills such as fester are not present. The Pet Master's job skills are all focused on Pet Management and skills. The Pet Master theoretically can out DPS the Disease master in a dummy parse, but is significantly weakened if their pet dies or the pet needs to move (like Ifrit's slow walking across the arena). In a sense, the Pet Master is like a BLM where movement can significantly drop their DPS, but the uninterrupted single target potential is high.

Flare Master -> This summoner focuses on AoE with skills such as Painflare, Deathflare and Shadowflare. Egi is not very powerful and DoTs are either not present or reduced in capacity.

Naturally, each of the jobs would need a few new skills in their belt, the above ideas are only supposed to provide an image of the focus of the job. Then, depending on what you like about SMN, you could focus on any one of them.

In this case, Pet Master would be the best on A1S, Flare Master on A2S etc. No one spec is always the best, but they are better in different situations. Disease Master would likely be the best in a dungeon run.

[Velhart]

[QUOTE=Kaurie;3525369]To counter your points.

Not everyone takes part in end-game. Didn't they say like 1/3 players have beat Alex normal last they released numbers, that's nevermind Savage content. So that everyone will want the best is a bit of a stretch.

Job balance is mostly done on the mind set of end game, especially on the hardest content. Developers don't take as high consideration for people who don't take on the full potential of their job.

Some people, such as myself, find it fun to experiment with builds and come up with something that works best for us. I did this with Guild Wars 1 and 2, and never had any issues keeping up with content. I also do this with my rotations, I refuse to go on and read guides on how to play my job. I spent the first week or so of 3.0 playing with SMN and making my own rotation, and I do fairly well with it.

You will ultimately fall into the category of doing what gets the most out of your job. You are only trying to make things interesting at a leveling perspective.

I think that job specs don't have to have a best/worst, and can be balanced the way the jobs are currently balanced. One aspect may provide more raw DPS, while another provides more Raid DPS etc. Perhaps not 1 job spec will always be better, but it will vary depending on your group composition.

Again, that is way too much to ask out of developers. They have to try to balance out all skill trees the best they can. If you want to go on a solo mode, they give you abilities and sub abilities already that let you do that. Everyone also has some form of raid utility they can bring to the table, rather if it is big or small.

I take part int he end-game community, and almost everyone says to play what you want. On the very cusp of progression, things are bit crazier, but that changes after a couple of weeks.

Because everything except Thordan EX and Savage have any relevancy for what you play as. When a raid comes out, you either go an optimal setup, be really damn good and efficient at your job on a raid level, or gear up till you can meet the checks.

The switching jobs on the spot has actually turned out to be the most limiting aspect of this game. Not only can I not swap specs to adjust my gameplay as I please, but I can't gear more than one job. If I am a SMN in raiding content, that is all I will be. I could level an alt, but the story gating is huge. It's a lot easier to have alt classes in other games that can all take part in the various content and be appropriately geared up.

Only really holds water for AF gear and weapons. Most gear now except a few share with other jobs. SMN/BLM, WHM/SCH/AST, DRK/PLD/WAR, MCH/BRD. For the most part, I geared out my MCH and BRD almost simultaneously. If you want to go as something different, that is fine. On a raid level, and this isn't just FFXIV, people want you to go as what you are most optimal in. Putting a skill tree on that will change nothing.

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Just imagine being a developer and you got to balance 2-3 specs within a job out of the many this game is going to have. Games like WoW still have a very limited amount of classes to play in comparison, which makes it easier to balance three specs within a class. Wouldn't want to be that guy.

[RiceisNice]

While Yoshi's probably reluctant to introduce more customization right now, I suspect it's something they'll have to add to the game eventually. It's incredibly rare for MMOs to lack customization to the degree that FFXIV does these days (even FFXI has two separate tracks for it now at 99). What form it will take is anybody's guess, though.

Honestly the armory system can do just that with some limitations, it's just s matter of making those jobs different (brd and mch being the offender here). They could stand to do a bit more synergy between different jobs to encourage different compositions, rather than make drg and warrior optimal for any and all set ups.

[Alahra]

Honestly the armory system can do just that with some limitations, it's just s matter of making those jobs different (brd and mch being the offender here). They could stand to do a bit more synergy between different jobs to encourage different compositions, rather than make drg and warrior optimal for any and all set ups.

Honestly, I foresee the Armory system being a major part of any future customization. There's already actually a sort of small aspect there: SCH and SMN. You have to pick which one you want to focus on more because of how the stats are shared (unless you want to carry around a ton of Keeper's Hymns anyway). Personally, I still wish they'd expand on that idea and give us more dual-job classes like Arcanist. I know it's a pipe dream, but still...

PS. Sorry I almost let you die a bunch in Neverreap the other day, my Cleric Stance button was being finnicky. :P

[Zojha]

Personally, I still wish they'd expand on that idea and give us more dual-job classes like Arcanist.

And I just wonder why, because the only thing you "gain" compared to having it as separate classes is the fact that if you someday want to switch, you need to level one less class. That aside, it's only hinders your freedom of playing all classes even more because you need to buy hymns in addition to gathering the gear.

[Kaurie]

Honestly the armory system can do just that with some limitations, it's just s matter of making those jobs different (brd and mch being the offender here). They could stand to do a bit more synergy between different jobs to encourage different compositions, rather than make drg and warrior optimal for any and all set ups.

I feel the Armoury system could work beautifully to provide the customization aspect we'd like. That said, I think that two things need to accompany that:
1. Less restrictions on gearing multiple jobs
2. More flavour in secondary stats, more horizontal gear choices and more reason to choose something other than your base stat with your 35 attribute points (I don't even see why give us this choice in the current design)

[RiceisNice]

I feel the Armoury system could work beautifully to provide the customization aspect we'd like.

The soul stone things need to be reworked entirely if they want to diversify the current jobs, or they can opt with adding new jobs that perform the same role (melee dps, caster, ranged dps, tank, healer). The problem with soulstones right now is that they are not introduced until level 30, and your abilities from 1-50 are tied to your class, it really gives no room to work with when it comes to diversifying gameplay if they are all drawing from the same skill pool; think berserker being a marauder sub-job, with deliverance, fell cleave, decimate and tp regen. It doesn't play any different from warrior because they're still drawing the same BB and maim combos, as well as cooldowns such as berserk, and at best you make them play similar to each other.

As salty as I am with SE right now, he makes a point. I much rather have new jobs to play then making roles within a job. The point of the Job system in the first place is to make you excel in a certain aspect. If we were to go to a skill tree like system, it would basically be using the Class system again which we already have in the game. It did not work out as planned as you can see.

Regardless of what you're going to choose (job talents or more, diversed jobs), people will still ultimately try to go with the "best" to do cutting-edge progression. That's just the reality of it; why do you think every group runs with at least a WAR and DRG, while opting out on AST and PLD until the content is essentially "nerfed" due to overgearing? And it'll just become more evident once we add in more jobs, especially if it's in rhythm with a 8-man composition.

Whether its more jobs or additional talents, something should be done to make the game at the player characters feel like there is some sort of variety, whether it be end game or general gameplay. Espesically since the current state of sub-stats, and even primary stats, do nothing but boost your numbers slightly; there's no sense of empowerment when you get that gear piece upgrade. More jobs can do it just fine provided they don't screw that up (see BRD/MCH)

[Velhart]

snip

I agree. I am always in favor of making a simplistic system with a lot of depth, which I think the game delivers for the most part. People still even talk or experiment today on how to best approach a job. It is not to say that improvements shouldn't be made, but SE is on the right track with how they set it up. A better step actually cutting out classes for the new jobs.

[RiceisNice]

I agree. I am always in favor of making a simplistic system with a lot of depth, which I think the game delivers for the most part. People still even talk or experiment today on how to best approach a job. It is not to say that improvements shouldn't be made, but SE is on the right track with how they set it up. A better step actually cutting out classes for the new jobs.

The classes by themselves add almost no depth to the game though, not unless they actually rework it from the ground up. All it's really done is made you require XYZ levleed up for cross skills, rather than baking in those "essential" cross skills (things like provoke, invigorate) to the individual jobs.

Come 4.x though, I think it would be ideal to do the job overhaul alongside new abilties and traits. There's too many buttons for most jobs to be able to add anymore, and traits by themselves are "meh" and have very limited framework. Jobs like BRD (if they intend on keeping WM) and SMN (for the "pet" aspect, unless they intend on doing that for MCH, but that's a long road with what we have now) need to be given another look before they continue on adding new abilties.

[Kosmos992k]

I feel the Armoury system could work beautifully to provide the customization aspect we'd like. That said, I think that two things need to accompany that:
1. Less restrictions on gearing multiple jobs
2. More flavour in secondary stats, more horizontal gear choices and more reason to choose something other than your base stat with your 35 attribute points (I don't even see why give us this choice in the current design)

I agree with the above. How about throwing in a leveling mechanic that allows you to retrain your job (drop to level 1 in the primary class for your job and re-level) and the primary class it is based on and receive an extra cross class skill slot for it. Retrain a 2nd time and get one more slot, retrain a 3rd time and you can combine cross class skills from a third class. It would take a hell of a lot of leveling, but it would enhance and deepen your main class by giving you an additional 2 cross class skill slots and a third class to select skills from.

My mind boggles at the prospect of retraining multiple jobs in this manner, but it would be a pretty good boost in the arm to have more cross class skills to work with. Perhaps if you retrain a 2nd, 3rd or more jobs on one character to the maximum, all their cross class skills open up to each other at level 60?

Such a leveling mechanic would surely bring life back to the early leveling areas as well as giving crafted gear a major shot in the arm.