Can we please stop locking content out of DF?

[Kaurie]

Purgatory then? DF content too boring to be worth doing, and can't get into non-DF content to even see if it's remotely not boring.

You are almost as good of a troll as The_Greatest_Evil, but not quite ^.^

[Callback]

You are almost as good of a troll as The_Greatest_Evil, but not quite ^.^

Maybe I'm just not expressing myself in the right way then.


I want to try the actual endgame to see if it's exciting at all like I was promised by the people who convinced me to join in the first place. I have no way to get a group to do it and even find out. So I'm stuck with all this wasted time building up this character to hit that ilvl195 req for Thordan without any way to even see if it was worth it. It's depressing.

[Kaurie]

Maybe I'm just not expressing myself in the right way then.

I want to try the actual endgame to see if it's exciting at all like I was promised by the people who convinced me to join in the first place. I have no way to get a group to do it and even find out. So I'm stuck with all this wasted time building up this character to hit that ilvl195 req for Thordan without any way to even see if it was worth it. It's depressing.

Ah I'm sorry I thought you were actually trolling. A lot of your posts go on to talk about how this game sucks, and requires no skill etc - but then follow it up by showing how you haven't taken part in end-game or even obtained your (nearly necessary) cross class skills. You have a lot of negativity in your posts, and if you want people to take you seriously, try to bring a bit more of a positive light. Remember the people you are addressing do like the game, and telling them that the game sucks and takes no skill is just offensive to your reader.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Maybe I'm just not expressing myself in the right way then.


I want to try the actual endgame to see if it's exciting at all like I was promised by the people who convinced me to join in the first place. I have no way to get a group to do it and even find out. So I'm stuck with all this wasted time building up this character to hit that ilvl195 req for Thordan without any way to even see if it was worth it. It's depressing.

Part of that building requires leveling additional classes for cross skills. If you're unwilling to get Blood for Blood, the vast majority of endgame raid groups won't want you because you're sub-optimal to another Ninja who put the time in to get Blood for Blood.

[Ashkendor]

Maybe I'm just not expressing myself in the right way then.

Possibly. I do have to note one thing, though.

That seems improbable in a game this simple. How is it even physically possible to do that little in a game where "combat" is just point-and-click and pressing keys in the right order? I refuse to believe that it is possible to fail to master a duty in a single run through.

Sorry, I forgot that we had the "babby's first vidyagame" community and that somehow in a combat system that lets you pretend you're actually playing some people can still get confused.

Seeing things like this from you is what makes people think you're a troll. Have you even gone and looked at videos for any of the endgame content for this game? It takes weeks of effort to clear some of the raids, and you casually trivialize that without even having set foot in any of it. I mean, you're doing stuff like Alex Normal and Void Ark that's meant to be faceroll easy. My static's working on A3S now and even though we more than meet the gear requirement now, it's still hard.

Only for lack of a group who wants to bother. If only it were in DF...

The fight being in DF doesn't lower the DPS requirement.

Expert roulette is too boring/grindy to bother with eso gear. I meet min ilv for the whole game, that's plenty. I just need to run it now.

Upgraded Eso gear has more primary stats than Void Ark gear, meaning you do more damage just by wearing it. Optimizing your secondary stats can also do a fair bit for your damage output. Item level is far from being the end-all measure of DPS capacity.

And if you seriously expect me to get 2 combat classes up you are insane. Who has time for a grind that boring? The length wouldn't be THAT bad if there was even an ounce of satisfying gameplay to be had through it, but there's not. Just spamming point-and-click not-combat for an eternity. I can't even stomach LNC enough to get b4b. It's not worth it. It's too BORING.

So you're a DPS that's purposely gimping your damage by 10% every 80 seconds. Okay.

I want to try the actual endgame to see if it's exciting at all like I was promised by the people who convinced me to join in the first place. I have no way to get a group to do it and even find out. So I'm stuck with all this wasted time building up this character to hit that ilvl195 req for Thordan without any way to even see if it was worth it. It's depressing.

I wouldn't want to take a Ninja without B4B either. Cross-class skills are an important part of optimization. If you don't feel they're worth the time, you're going to have a hard time finding people that feel it's worth their time to take you into endgame.

[Callback]

Possibly.
Have you even gone and looked at videos for any of the endgame content for this game? It takes weeks of effort to clear some of the raids, and you casually trivialize that without even having set foot in any of it. I mean, you're doing stuff like Alex Normal and Void Ark that's meant to be faceroll easy. My static's working on A3S now and even though we more than meet the gear requirement now, it's still hard.

I've looked at a few, I don't see anything in them that seems too special from the outside.

Also I'm not "doing" Alex and Void Ark, I did them, got bored, and now I'm done with them. I just want to move on to the next step up whatever it is. The problem being that according to people here, that step doesn't actually follow in order as you would expect, but rather has a 100 hour buffer of the easiest most boring stuff in the game before I have the gear and cross-class skills to meet the arbitrary requirements.

The fight being in DF doesn't lower the DPS requirement.

DPS checks shouldn't exist anyway. They just measure gear with no regard for skill. I have yet to see a thing in this game where skill was a factor, that's why I'm so against this combat system. It feels like I'm playing a clicker game, just watching the numbers get bigger as nothing really changes.

Upgraded Eso gear has more primary stats than Void Ark gear, meaning you do more damage just by wearing it. Optimizing your secondary stats can also do a fair bit for your damage output. Item level is far from being the end-all measure of DPS capacity.

Then why does it take so long to earn (both rate and cap) in only the most boring of ways? And to compound the boredom they limit the roulette for it to only 2 choices of dungeons. This feels like the kind of thing that should be giving like 100 base with a 200 first-timer bonus, uncapped, for running ravana or bismarck EX (Are those DF or not? I heard mixed things about it)

So you're a DPS that's purposely gimping your damage by 10% every 80 seconds. Okay.

Not purposely, that would be having the skill and refusing to use it. I just don't have it.

I wouldn't want to take a Ninja without B4B either. Cross-class skills are an important part of optimization. If you don't feel they're worth the time, you're going to have a hard time finding people that feel it's worth their time to take you into endgame.

It's not that I haven't started on it. Why does it take so long to unlock? Why are secondary classes such a grind? Obviously if I've gotten this far on my main he content my LNC is being forced to do is boring and easy as hell. He's 29/34 and it's the dullest thing to do. I've resorted to just accepting leves and letting someone else actually run them while I play Mario Maker, but those allowances run dry fairly quickly. Is there something faster?

[UBERHAXED]

DPS checks shouldn't exist anyway. They just measure gear with no regard for skill. I have yet to see a thing in this game where skill was a factor, that's why I'm so against this combat system. It feels like I'm playing a clicker game, just watching the numbers get bigger as nothing really changes.

How is it that people with less gear (i.e. in July) cleared A3S and people with (obviously) more gear and available strategies in January (for example, you) have not cleared it? If dps checks solely measure gear, then it would be impossible to do in 6 months ago and everyone would have cleared it by September. Do you really not see the fallacy here?

[Callback]

Partly true, but not fully. There is a large skill gap in this game. I've personally seen people in gear 10-20 ilvls lower outDPS the higher geared person. Knowing and being able to execute your rotation, while handling mechanics, while managing cooldowns/stacks/buffs given down-times of the fight etc does take some skill.

Partially, but it's really not hard to be damn-near optimal, leaving the rest to pure stat numbers. Maybe NIN is just insanely easy, but the way the combat in this game is designed it really does feel like it just plays itself while you get to watch and give vague commands. The point-and-click combat system is incredibly simple by design. The main benefit is resistance to lag, seeing as how the system was invented back when DSL was top-of-the-line, but in exchange for that it sacrifices almost all of what would make gameplay action-oriented.

This is limited by cap to prevent people from being in 210 gear in one week. Esoterics are given in almost all end game content, more than just DF. Void Ark, Alex NM, Alex Savage, Thordan EX, Ravana EX, Bismark EX, PvP, Expert Roulette, 60 Roulette, Leveling Roulette, Trials Roulette, PvP Roulette. Heck if you do PvP Roulette (40 Eso) + Expert Roulette (75 Eso) each day, you'll be capped on Eso in 4 days. That's like 45 minutes a day, give or take.

Not for me. I tried PVP roulette once. ONCE. Queue took 50 minutes just to pop, followed by sitting in a lagfest unable to do anything and being better off just hiding in back defending than trying to do anything because the alternative was running in and getting melted at range by the bodies rubberbanding around the map so you could never get near them.

Expert I already talked about. A mere 2 dungeons get real old REAL fast., and doing that 5 days per week for 2 weeks per piece (for one single job only, HOW do they expect people to maintain multiple??) is not an appealing proposition.

What I don't get is the lockout clearly promotes elitism, in that only people with statics and of the upper elite are able to even enter - nevermind clear. It kind of goes opposite to the rest of the entire FFXIV mentality. Other than changing how the loot lockout works, I don't see why there would be a problem in having them in DF on release.

Raids work ok with a lockout, and I think putting harder content in DF with a first-clear bonus of maybe double tokens would motivate more people to do it that way, especially if it grouped as I originally recommended fitting 7 clears with 1 non-clear.

How is it that people with less gear (i.e. in July) cleared A3S and people with (obviously) more gear and available strategies in January (for example, you) have not cleared it?

Because I haven't gone in yet?

If dps checks solely measure gear, then it would be impossible to do in 6 months ago and everyone would have cleared it by September. Do you really not see the fallacy here?

I see no fallacy. As stated above, getting in is the biggest issue for most people who would otherwise destroy the content. DPS checks aren't a skill-based mechanic. It's just a measuring stick. Unless someone is intentionally trolling, being insanely lazy, or dead (the only skill-based entry on this list), there is no reason for them not to be DPSing at or near their gear's maximum output.

[Kaurie]

Partially, but it's really not hard to be damn-near optimal, leaving the rest to pure stat numbers. Maybe NIN is just insanely easy, but the way the combat in this game is designed it really does feel like it just plays itself while you get to watch and give vague commands. The point-and-click combat system is incredibly simple by design. The main benefit is resistance to lag, seeing as how the system was invented back when DSL was top-of-the-line, but in exchange for that it sacrifices almost all of what would make gameplay action-oriented.

To be honest, I don't get why you call it point-and-click. Perhaps we define this differently, but I rarely if ever point and click anything in combat. I'd be really curious to partner up with you and see if you have mastered your job as you suggest you have.

Further, I am not sure why you find it so simple. I personally find the combat much more engaging and complex than nearly all other MMO's I have tried (BnS, GW2, WoW, Tera, and smaller F2P games)

Not for me. I tried PVP roulette once. ONCE. Queue took 50 minutes just to pop, followed by sitting in a lagfest unable to do anything and being better off just hiding in back defending than trying to do anything because the alternative was running in and getting melted at range by the bodies rubberbanding around the map so you could never get near them.

Expert I already talked about. A mere 2 dungeons get real old REAL fast., and doing that 5 days per week for 2 weeks per piece (for one single job only, HOW do they expect people to maintain multiple??) is not an appealing proposition.

I am not sure how you are lagging so bad in PvP. I've never received lag there personally. Queue times vary by data center and grand company. I usually get 5 minute waits when I do it. If you don't PvP, you can still cap eso's quite easily via other methods. I listed a great number of alternatives.

I agree on Expert, the issue to me though is not that it's two dungeons, it's that it is those two dungeons. I hated both of them like 30 seconds in to each. It wasn't as bad with Neverreap and Fractals - and even those were not great.

Regardless, it's pretty easy to hit Eso cap. You can also get Eso in Diadem, i forgot to mention earlier. Nearly anything end-game in this game provides it. If you don't want to do end-game, you don't need it. If you do end-game, you'll cap easy.

Raids work ok with a lockout, and I think putting harder content in DF with a first-clear bonus of maybe double tokens would motivate more people to do it that way, especially if it grouped as I originally recommended fitting 7 clears with 1 non-clear.

I would not like to see DF be modified so greatly to promote carries such as 7 cleared people with 1 uncleared. This will just have uncleared people waiting in 16 hour long queues. Just match people up randomly, let them know with a warning that using the Duty Finder at their ilevel in this content is not advised, and let them have at it. It will at least let them experience the content, and there are still statics and PF for people who want to take the content more seriously.

All they need to do is make the loot lockout like Void Ark style when entering in DF. That is, if someone else cleared, it doesn't affect you, but you still can only get 1 drop per week.

Because I haven't gone in yet?

While I generally disagree with Uberhaxed, finding his posts go off on random points that don't properly address the topic or discussion at hand, in this case he is 100% right and you missed the mark. He said for example you, but was talking in general. There are a lot of people who are geared up who cannot complete A3S vs people who had 10-20 ilvls several months ago who did clear it. This shows that there is more than just an arbitrary gear check present, and that there are skill-checks as well.

I see no fallacy. As stated above, getting in is the biggest issue for most people who would otherwise destroy the content. DPS checks aren't a skill-based mechanic. It's just a measuring stick. Unless someone is intentionally trolling, being insanely lazy, or dead, there is no reason for them not to be DPSing at or near their gear's maximum output.

Again, you're 100% wrong on this. Getting in is not an issue, just make a learning party PF and go in (for A1S - good luck getting a group for A3S I guess). It would be great if you could video record your A1S run, so that we can all see the evidence of how amazingly you destroy this simple content.

To reiterate before, DPS checks are a skill based mechanic as well as a gear check. The variation in DPS that people put out is much higher based on skill than gear (MUCH higher).

PS: I checked your Lodestone, and you have more than enough gear to enter A1S. Make a PF recruitment for a learning party and go in, it isn't difficult at all to do.

[Ashkendor]

Also I'm not "doing" Alex and Void Ark, I did them, got bored, and now I'm done with them. I just want to move on to the next step up whatever it is. The problem being that according to people here, that step doesn't actually follow in order as you would expect, but rather has a 100 hour buffer of the easiest most boring stuff in the game before I have the gear and cross-class skills to meet the arbitrary requirements.

You should honestly continue to do Void Ark for the weekly Esoterics upgrade material. Just hang onto them.

DPS checks shouldn't exist anyway. They just measure gear with no regard for skill. I have yet to see a thing in this game where skill was a factor, that's why I'm so against this combat system. It feels like I'm playing a clicker game, just watching the numbers get bigger as nothing really changes.

Why would we need DPS players at all then? If there were no DPS checks, we could just clear everything in the game with 6 tanks and 2 healers. With how many survival tools that tanks have, maybe even just one healer.

Then why does it take so long to earn (both rate and cap) in only the most boring of ways? And to compound the boredom they limit the roulette for it to only 2 choices of dungeons. This feels like the kind of thing that should be giving like 100 base with a 200 first-timer bonus, uncapped, for running ravana or bismarck EX (Are those DF or not? I heard mixed things about it)

I don't really have a problem with earning Esoterics. I'm usually capped by Thursday night just by doing my daily roulettes and either some Alex normal or some PvP, whichever I feel like. The past couple of weeks I've been more focused on relic though. Don't neglect the level 60 and Trials roulette. Leveling roulette even gives 5 (though you probably want to use this to get LNC leveled).

it's not that I haven't started on it. Why does it take so long to unlock? Why are secondary classes such a grind? Obviously if I've gotten this far on my main he content my LNC is being forced to do is boring and easy as hell. He's 29/34 and it's the dullest thing to do. I've resorted to just accepting leves and letting someone else actually run them while I play Mario Maker, but those allowances run dry fairly quickly. Is there something faster?

Battlecraft leves are pretty much the slowest way to level aside from straight up mob grinding. Do your leveling roulette and guildhest roulette every day. Do the challenge log achievements for FATEs as well by doing FATEs in Coerthas Central Highlands. Try to finagle it so you get as many of the challenge log entries done on that class as you can. I mean, I've gotten 3 classes from 50-60 in the past few weeks just by doing beast tribe quests and Main Scenario Roulette every day, along with daily hunts, some random FATEs, and challenge log achievements. Poke around and see if you have any side quests that you can pick up, too.