Thread: PLD 4.0

Originally Posted by Brian_

Because PLD was niche in that it was the only low DPS, low magic-mitigation tank.

Again, the problem with PLD is not that it has personal low DPS. It's that it offers nothing relevant to the raid to compensate for that.

Looking only at personal DPS is like saying BRD is a bad job because its numbers are lower than other DPS.

Originally Posted by Brian_

But, by doing so, you are just falling back into the current meta where anything over that baseline is sacrificed for more DPS.

Unless they design content where killing the ennemy is not the goal, everything above the minimum will always be sacrificed for more DPS. Solo tank or solo heal strats alredy existed for First Coil, as well as STR speced tanks, especially for that. With this idea, you sacrifice a second tank to gain a fifth DPS.

Originally Posted by Brian_

And, if all you cared about was casual content, then none of this discussion needs to happen.

What really set high-tier content from other content is not the difficulty, it's the choice. In Duty Finder, you'll end up with random jobs and random players, so, you don't have to design several strats to clear it. In Savage or early Extreme Primals, you can chose your setup and it will change how you manage the fight. You can specifically try a solo tank Ravana (Or even a solo tank Bismarck, with this kind of stacking defensive buff), so it could be interesting to design jobs around these different strats.

And if different strats result in approximately the same clear time, there's no balance issue.

Originally Posted by Brian_

You're vastly underestimating how much better DRK is against magic, how much better PLD is against physical -- especially when sheltron is at its best, and how much WAR excels at either.

In a fight like Thordan EX, DRK is complete garbage and PLD takes a huge dump on them with WAR taking a smaller dump on both.

But then you have fights like A1S and A4S where PLD is just total trash compared to DRK and WAR.

You talk about small margins but people care about those margins. Just look at PLD. They can clear all of Savage. But, the margins you speak of meant they cleared it 4+ weeks after the DRK / WAR groups. I can count the number of high-level PLDs left on my server on one hand.

The example I used was hypothetical. The numbers I used were clearly made up, and it was used to explain that niches in small margins are not harmful to the game. Just look at racial bonuses as another example.

It is not fair to call a difference that results in a large margin a niche. At this point, its not a niche anymore, but a specializiation. Specialized tanks means that one tank can be useless in content, niched tanks means that all tanks are useful, but certain ones will perform a task that is unique to its job.

Originally Posted by Brian_

The reason why niches are bad was already exemplified in A1S-A4S and is a basic idea within class design in any multi-class game. PLD's first A4S was 4+ weeks after the first DRK / WAR groups. Why? Because PLD was niche in that it was the only low DPS, low magic-mitigation tank. Because we had niche tanks, they reacted differently to the same content and PLDs lost out.

Nobody thinks it was a good idea to have one tank incapable of doing content without 4 more weeks of gearing. The mass exodus from PLD is proof of this.

So, why are we discussing the idea of going "one step beyond" in relation to PLD's supposed defensive niche? So that PLD can clear content 4 weeks ahead of WAR and DRK while they wait for gear to push them over a specific eHP threshold? One step beyond is giving PLD a meaningful advantage in eHP -- an equivalent advantage to the higher DPS of WAR and DRK. We've seen what that means already.

It was bad design when it was DPS. It's still bad design when it applies to mitigation.

They admitted to their mistakes in tuning. Why are we suggesting they should repeat those mistakes in another way?

All tanks need to be able to survive content. The moment a tank is incapable of surviving content, they are no longer a tank. They are nothing. So, you set the baseline at the lowest survivability tank. But, by doing so, you are just falling back into the current meta where anything over that baseline is sacrificed for more DPS.

And, if all you cared about was casual content, then none of this discussion needs to happen. They could make PLD even worse and they'd still clear the next Alex normal just fine.

Having bad DPS isn't a niche, thats just bad tuning when it comes to DPS. Bard's niche isn't that it has lower DPS then other DPS classes, but that it brings some unique support that other classes don't bring. The DPS loss is there to balance the class in respect to other classes.

No one is asking for overpowered specialized tanks, that would obviously break the game. Racial bonuses do not break the game. When niches happen that do not overwhelmingly effect the meta such like the example I used, then the effect the niche has, (making the job unique), is healthy for the game.

Again I reiterate the point that niches should be marginally small, and not the extremely large ones you mentioned that make tanks useless in a fight. Classes clearing content 4 weeks later then others isn't because its a problem with niches, but a problem with tuning. The point in niches isn't to reinforce the idea that you need specialized tanks, but to make the jobs unique so they aren't homogenized and boring.

Again, having high or low DPS doesn't count as a niche, but having the highest fire type damage could be considered a niche. If a boss was weak to fire damage, would you bother changing your raid composition to bring fire? Not unless the difference was so large that the content is unclearable without it. (This is not what I'm arguing for.)

I'd love to see some kind of trait that would reset the cool down on Circle of Scorn. Perhaps give Royal Authority a chance to do so? I hate to rely on RNG for such things, but I can't think of another good place to put it.

Additionally, something that would allow Shield Swipe to be brought to bear while OTing would be nice.

How about this, give Royal Authority two additional effects:

Sword Oath (Combo Bonus): Royal Authority has a chance to proc Shield Swipe.
Shield Oath (Combo Bonus): Royal Authority has a chance to reset the cooldown on Circle of Spite.