Thread: PLD 4.0

Originally Posted by Brian_

The point is people DO NOT WANT RNG MITIGATION. People want to know how much damage they're going to take and when they are going to take it. [...] That's what people want. Consistent mitigation.

To be frank, tough luck to those people. Predictability on that level would make the game (and really any game) insufferably boring. Where's the challenge if the situation is 100% reliable? Micromanaging your cooldowns? You can already do that. Maximizing your rotation? You can already do that, too. Mastering encounter mechanics? That can also already be done. Parry exists to smooth out the damage taken when taking a lot of hits (which is admittedly rare outside of dungeons). The more parry, the more reliable your mitigation will be.

Let me ask this: if Parry were replaced with "Toughness," which granted equivalent effective mitigation (only without the RNG component) would it be better? If you had 30% Parry rate (possible with current levels of gear), it translates to 6% physical mitigation; would you prefer a lower-scaling Toughness stat that mitigated every non-blocked, non-Crit physical hit for a flat 6%?

I don't think I personally would.

Originally Posted by Jpec07

Let me ask this: if Parry were replaced with "Toughness," which granted equivalent effective mitigation (only without the RNG component) would it be better? If you had 30% Parry rate (possible with current levels of gear), it translates to 6% physical mitigation; would you prefer a lower-scaling Toughness stat that mitigated every non-blocked, non-Crit physical hit for a flat 6%?

I don't think I personally would.

Yes, I would want this.

You could even call it...bonus armor? And make it appear only on tank gear (including vit jewelry)? And give your tanks...bonus damage based on how much bonus armor they had?

Edit: Or, better yet, call it bonus defense!

Originally Posted by Instrumentality

Yes, I would want this.

You could even call it...bonus armor? And make it appear only on tank gear (including vit jewelry)? And give your tanks...bonus damage based on how much bonus armor they had?

Edit: Or, better yet, call it bonus defense!

I'm not sure if it's intentional, but you're referencing what I consider to be one of the biggest tank design mistakes in World of Warcraft. I hated Bonus Armor and everything it represented, and I absolutely would not want it here. It was one of the things that killed the game for me, and I sincerely hope SE is smarter than to implement it here.

Simple explanation of why rapid large auto attacks don't work: tank gets hit for 6k, healer heals for 4k, tank gets crit for 10k, healer heals for 4k and uses a cooldown, tank gets crit again, massive panic to keep up, tank ends up dead and there's nothing either of them could've done to stop it. You can't have one role in a group rely largely on RNG to survive while another role stresses out trying to keep them alive, as the last role hopes that both can make it work and not wipe. Parry would be more useful, yes, but at a cost no one wants to pay.

Edit: Also, just to note, in this fictional world WAR would be king, PLD would be quite a bit behind but still viable, and DRK would get sliced through like butter.

Parry's just a bad stat and it really should be providing both parry rate and flat mitigation if they want tanks to seek it out. Traits to make parry basically give bonus damage (or more stuff like Low Blows but more important) would be fine as well but something has to be done. Also this is a couple pages back but dark knight really doesn't burn away MP on crappy AOEs in order to deal with TP loss. They just yell at the ninja like paladins do (also blood weapon helps a little).

Back on the actual topic of the thread, where I'd like them to go with new paladin abilities really depends on what they do with the other tanks in 4.0. In Heavensward we basically got back some 1.23 abilities that got cut to make room for stuff like sword/shield oath, awareness, and putting Provoke on GLA instead of MRD (why?). It was good to get that stuff back in Heavensward, they just made all of it way worse - Clemency is a slower Holy Succor, Divine Veil's cooldown is like 2.5 times longer and doesn't raise block rate, and Aegis Boon got the healing changed to MP restoration. Hopefully they don't do the same thing in 4.0, because while Outmaneuver and War Drum would be good for paladin TP/AOE, I think they'd also both be really boring and those problems should be fixed by making skills we have right now more useful.

I think they did some cool stuff with Heavensward abilities on other classes, and I want some of that for me. For paladin in 4.0, I'd like to see an ability or WS that changes depending on what stance you're in. I'd also like to see a WS that has its own cooldown, like Empyreal Arrow. It would be cool if we had a WS that was based on a random proc, or that could be used after any combo for different effects. I'd also like more multipurpose abilities in general. So, this is kind of quickly put together, but something like this:

Gallant Blade - Whatever seconds recast
Delivers an attack with some potency. Combo potency: more
Additional effect changes depending on preceding weapon skill.
Rage of Halone: Does this effect
Goring Blade: Does that effect
Royal Authority: Does the other effect
This weaponskill does not share a recast timer with any other actions.

Something like this would be cool, I think, and could add a lot of flexibility with only one ability slot. Really, the more words that are on the tooltip, the better.

Originally Posted by Brannigan

Also this is a couple pages back but dark knight really doesn't burn away MP on crappy AOEs in order to deal with TP loss. They just yell at the ninja like paladins do (also blood weapon helps a little).

DRK at least has the option of using Unmend for a couple GCDs when they bottom out (or Abyssal Drain, or Dark Passenger, or Plunge), while PLD has COS and Shield Swipe (and not even Swipe if they're OT).

It's trivial for a PLD to go dry on TP, and it's the only tank with no way to get it back without begging the NIN. That's why the suggestions I made way, way back on page 1 all include ways for PLD to recover TP that aren't straight clones of Equilibrium/Purify/Invigorate, and work with the existing skills PLD already has.

Originally Posted by Februs

I find this to be an extremely amusing comment, given that it's coming from someone who's profile says they main Warrior, and half of Warrior's defensive kit is based on active mitigation.

What I find amusing is a Paladin who has the nerve of trying to mock me over an argument with Paladin's mitigation vs tankbusters, what PLDs are doing to run out of TP and what to if and when you run of TP, just because my profile says I main as a warrior among other preconceived junk. All this because this paladin clearly thinks Clemency is on the same level as any a warrior can do, as though it can possibly be interrupted by extreme damage thus making clemency do absolutely nothing. It is so funny how in this guy's mind using stoneskin before getting hit by a tankbuster to reduce the damage and healing needed there after, is worse than potentially doing nothing and getting killed by a follow up or wasting a healer's CD like Benediction when they got better things to do than to clean up the mess your poor judgment has caused, just because clearly you think that warrior's only form of defense is self-healing. Clearly the DR, HP bonuses, Healing magic bonuses, 100% parry, best pool of cross class skills, and inner beast, all don't exist. I don't have to say that last sentence is sarcasm but since you're reading this, I should. And don't get me started with that clueless reply to If you run out of TP then just use stoneskin, or anything! Just be doing something, instead of waiting for a NIN/BRD/MCH/AST to do it for you.. . Seriously I don't feel like it.

Next time, please stay on topic.

Also to be on topic.
Would be nice if Fight or Flight increased attack power instead of strictly damage.

Originally Posted by Jpec07

I'm not sure if it's intentional, but you're referencing what I consider to be one of the biggest tank design mistakes in World of Warcraft. I hated Bonus Armor and everything it represented, and I absolutely would not want it here. It was one of the things that killed the game for me, and I sincerely hope SE is smarter than to implement it here.

I would, bonus armor was like the one awesome thing tanks got.

At least in comparison to secondary stats in this game it was a stat that mattered a huge amount.