3.2 PvP: Feast Game Mode Discussion Thread.

[Februs]

Can you get banned or reported for throwing matches on purpose? How hard would it be to detect someone doing this?

You'd be amazed what you can be banned for. There was someone complaining on here a while back about getting slapped with a ban over macro usage, and there's been several accounts of "witch hunts" for match throwers and alleged hackers. All it a takes is a sufficient number of reports to the support desk, and SE will look into it. Unfortunately, slapping said people with bans is not going to change the fact that they threw a match.

Even hypothetically, if 175 people from the same FC/Linkshell/Teamspeak/whatever all queued for Solo-Feast at the same time, there's no guarantee that they'll get into the same match. Match fixing in this way is very difficult, especially with rank restrictions on who can play with who. That was the whole point of making Solo-Feast a solo queue in the first place, to avoid the same monstrous matchmaking/fixing that happened in WD. This is especially the case because queuing with a team of people is not required to throw a match. All you have to do is queue as a healer and do a crummy job. The only thing a team queue would be good for is if you are trying to tilt the odds in someone else's favour, but seeing as how you can't guarantee that you'll end up on opposing teams, it's not an efficient way to match fix.

Is it possible? Sure. Is it likely? No. It's far more likely that the people who got into a match with just happen to suck at the game or are tome farming. When it happens, it really sucks, but there really isn't much you can do about it except roll with it and hope for better next time. Having SE shoot our queues in the foot isn't the answer. The majority of us shouldn't be punished because of the actions of a few bad apples.

[Nirokun]

Make Syphon Strike deal damage with increased MP returned in PVP, with that increase dealt as damage to the target's MP. Letting them attack a healer and decrease enemy dmg output would extend the encounters, bleeding the enemy healer's MP at an increased rate. I do this on SMN, repeat bane and using virus to nerf enemy burst with the focus to extend the fights and bleed the enemy healer of MP. A DRK/SMN team would noticeably bleed a healer more quickly, nerfing burst dmg, and generate more wins for these two jobs that are lacking in their own respective roles. It would be another synergistic combo to add to the scary WHM/BLM teams.

But people would cry OP instantly because heals would be disrupted.

[Nalien]

I agree that Drk's Mp management is definitely one of it's biggest set backs at the moment. There's no denying that they lack utility when compared to War and Pld, but insufficient mana cripples them to the point of uselessness. Mana draw would go a long way for this. The only other thing I'd probably like to see is Tar Pit adjusted to a ground based AoE that has a Bind, rather than a heavy. Their party utility would be fantastic, and their chase potential would serve the team, rather than just themselves.

IDK about that, situations where that chasing potential works in my favor are usually situations where I want to kill someone as fast as possible, not Bind them and wait for my team to catch up... Waiting usually means their healer respawns and heals them... Bind would be more useful in other situations though, but I think I prefer a previous suggestion of effectively making Tar Pit reverse Mythril Tempest; Draws people in rather than pushing them out. Would have similar utility and make the Heavy slightly more valuable, since you're not only slowing people down, but pulling them away from where they want to be too... Plus interrupt potential...

DRK sacrificing their HP to give it to others would be too dangerous lol. Carnal Chill should be an AOE around the DRK with the range of medica for starters, atm it's too limited. Tar Pit binding instead of heavying sounds good too.

Depends on how much HP is sacrificed, and have you seen Living Dead? Stupidly dangerous is kinda Dark Knights thing... Stacks nicely with Living Dead, now that I think about it...

If I drop say 25% of my HP to heal someone, I don't see that as particularly dangerous... Tar Pit can easily heal that back, as can Sole Survivor... Tanks are rarely the focus of attention anyway, and if losing 25% makes me the center of attention? Good... Not only does that give my healer a breather (after I've presumably just healed them), but it also lets me get more of out of Blood Price and my defensive cooldowns which generally sit unused for most of the match...

Also, no on changing Carnal Chill... That doubling up as ranged burst is too valuable... Heck, even if I was solely using it for the debuff, having it AoE around me seems more limited than being able to look at a Warrior half way across the map and go "That's a nice stack of Abandon you have there...", I've had far too many clutch kills/saves by tossing Carnal Chill out from a distance... Despite it's obvious weaknesses compared to what Paladin has, it's actually perfectly fine IMO...

Make Syphon Strike deal damage with increased MP returned in PVP, with that increase dealt as damage to the target's MP.

I've toyed around with the idea of Dark Arts Delirium damaging MP, it would be quite nice for Dark Knight to have something that pushes long encounters in their favor, since currently longer encounters are nothing but bad for a Dark Knight...

[NoelNoel]

If I drop say 25% of my HP to heal someone, I don't see that as particularly dangerous... Tar Pit can easily heal that back, as can Sole Survivor... Tanks are rarely the focus of attention anyway, and if losing 25% makes me the center of attention?

I can't count how many times (as DRG) I LB'd unsuspecting tanks that weren't full HP, I suppose if you're ready to react asap to sacrificing your HP it's fine, but if you have a stack or two and I see an opening I'm definitely gonna take the opportunity to end a match faster.

I understand your point about Carnal Chill though, but that's because you use it as a dps tool, not that it's not meant to be used as such, but it's mostly aimed at supporting your PT. And what greater use than it hiting multiple targets (for dps) AND applying a damage reduction.

[Kyani]

I've toyed around with the idea of Dark Arts Delirium damaging MP, it would be quite nice for Dark Knight to have something that pushes long encounters in their favor, since currently longer encounters are nothing but bad for a Dark Knight...

Remember how bad Scholars were before the changes to cast times? This would make SCH worse than that. Just charge up on the fairy or another target, then tag the Scholar every time they have to stop to heal.

Speaking of Scholar, any ETA on letting them respawn with fairy and/or Aetherflow? SCH is really not viable without their fairy, and it costs either 6 seconds or a long CD and 2k mana to get it back on res.

[Nalien]

I can't count how many times (as DRG) I LB'd unsuspecting tanks that weren't full HP, I suppose if you're ready to react asap to sacrificing your HP it's fine, but if you have a stack or two and I see an opening I'm definitely gonna take the opportunity to end a match faster.

Well, the moment I see a melee Limit Break me, I usually pop Living Dead in time... If I take your Limit Break rather than my healer, who is now free to heal me because I just healed someone and you're no longer focusing them and in animation lock, I'd say that would be well worth the risk...

I understand your point about Carnal Chill though, but that's because you use it as a dps tool, not that it's not meant to be used as such, but it's mostly aimed at supporting your PT. And what greater use than it hiting multiple targets (for dps) AND applying a damage reduction.

I don't just use it for DPS though... That damage reduction would be worthless to me if it's an AoE around me, I'd have to run next to whoever I want to pop it on, rather than just throwing it at someone from across the map... You'd either need to boost its range to be the entire arena or close for me to see any benefit out of that change... If I have to reposition myself in order to apply it, it's worthless... For both DPS and support, I need to be able to point and fire Carnal Chill... Right now I can hit a Warrior with it from across the map and ruin their Feels Cleave, make it AoE around me and I'll have to reposition myself, perhaps I can move early and do the same thing, but now the healer I was harassing doesn't have me on their heels...

Remember how bad Scholars were before the changes to cast times? This would make SCH worse than that. Just charge up on the fairy or another target, then tag the Scholar every time they have to stop to heal.

That's why I'd lock it behind Dark Arts, you'd be unable to really spam it (pending any MP changes for Dark Knight, that is). Depends entirely how much MP it take off, too... If it was 1:1 damage:MP, then that would be insanely powerful, I'd imagine it would be much less... It would essentially be similar to Monk spamming Arm of the Destroyer, effective but unsustainable and coming at the cost of damage.

[Februs]

IDK about that, situations where that chasing potential works in my favor are usually situations where I want to kill someone as fast as possible, not Bind them and wait for my team to catch up... Waiting usually means their healer respawns and heals them... Bind would be more useful in other situations though, but I think I prefer a previous suggestion of effectively making Tar Pit reverse Mythril Tempest; Draws people in rather than pushing them out. Would have similar utility and make the Heavy slightly more valuable, since you're not only slowing people down, but pulling them away from where they want to be too... Plus interrupt potential...

That depends on what type of bind is in place.

Right now, there's not a lot of difference between a heavy and a bind, because they both essentially do the same thing: Give you more time to smack the victim around while your dps catch up. Most dps can, and will, catch up quite quickly because all melee have a gap closer and ranged are ranged. The only real difference between the two is that Heavy lasts longer, but that's why I proposed that Tar Pit be made into a Ground Based AoE.

The idea here isn't to simply hit the attack, do the dmg, and inflict an instant bind which falls off right when the victim gets struck. The idea is to make Tar Pit into a kind of pseudo-Holmgang. Using it would generate a literal Tar Pit around the Drk, and everyone within range of the Tar Pit is fixed in place. The only way out would be to use Purify. The potential party utility of such a move would more than make up for Drk's current shortcomings, because it could cause interrupts, snare targets for burns, couple well with plunge for chase potential, and even be used as an area denial to isolate targets from objectives or their other teammates.

[SaveTheSunF1R3x]

Remember how bad Scholars were before the changes to cast times? This would make SCH worse than that. Just charge up on the fairy or another target, then tag the Scholar every time they have to stop to heal.

Speaking of Scholar, any ETA on letting them respawn with fairy and/or Aetherflow? SCH is really not viable without their fairy, and it costs either 6 seconds or a long CD and 2k mana to get it back on res.

Ive been saying this for far to long but i think the respawn protection buff should allow for a free instant cast summon. At the current moment you take to long to recover from a death. i swaer not even some top players understand that you need to give us a sec to recover before going ham again.

[Nalien]

Also wtf is up with every loss seemingly being a static -25 yet wins barely net 20 points?

This is really starting to bug me... +19 for a win, -28 for a loss... Plus I have no idea what is causing that variation... I suspect it is a combination of the difference in total party rating (in which case matchmaking can go to hell) and current rank, but I'd rather not get worked up trying to figure out why I get hit with such shitty rating rewards... Always fun to watch a weeks progress flushed away because reasons... Bad enough matchmaking calls a novice healer v one of the top DPS "balanced"...

I'm really quite sick of the rating/matchmaking system... Someone feel free to claim its fine, we have a leaderboard where around half the players aren't actively participating... If that's not a damning critique of Feast, I don't know what is... Matchmaking isn't the only issue there (the rewards are a huge part IMO), but the prevailing meta is "Don't play once you get 1,100+ rating" because the matchmaking/rating system can completely strip you of that in a matter of hours... I don't mind losing when teams are balanced, but they rarely are...

I don't even care if we don't have the playerbase for a tighter matchmaking system, I'll take longer queues for consistently enjoyable matches, over short queues for utter tripe... I'd say getting completely destroyed by someone on their way to Platinum is going to turn more new players off than long queues anyway, and we know for a fact that plenty of existing players are turning away regardless of queue time... The alternative is changing the rating system so it isn't such a frustrating mess, you can't just copy a rating system from games where one person can carry a team and slap it in here, where that is far from the case... Instead we have a system where it seems you're actively punished for being good... Matchmaking balances out the teams terribly and you end up losing more and gaining less the higher up you go... It's a fucking horrible system and it's no wonder so many are turning away from it, which sadly just compounds the problem since now you're almost certainly stuck playing with worse players as all the good ones get their 1,100+ rating and bail...

guess who just went from 1,000+ to 800 in the space of two days

[Xenosan]

IMO there are not quick fixes, potency adjustments, or special PVP actions that will help DRK in PVP significantly. (Mana Draw is a good start though).

The only way I see DRK being actually playable (competitive) is when there's change like from 2.55 -> 3.0, not necessarily level cap increase, but whenever they do the next skill additions (4.x?). DRK would need a facelift like got SMN 2.55 -> SMN 3.0.

It's problem is it's core mechanics are specifically designed for scripted PVE group play, and those mechanics do not convert to PVP. They could add all the flashy PVP actions they want to compensate, but a bad foundation makes for just too much working against it. I want to DRK in PVP, it's my PVE main, and its job I've been wanting to role since retiring from FFXI, but it just doesn't bring the productivity the other tanks can to my party; so I can't use DRK even though I'd like to.