3.2 PvP: Feast Game Mode Discussion Thread.

[Iagainsti]

Please, remove morale.

If morale would have any real effect and impact, it'd kill the customization in PVP, KILL CUSTOMIZATION...

I totally get what you are saying, and use my own mix on multiple classes, but if they implement morale properly, we'd want to use pvp gear.
Currently the only time PVE gear is good for pvp, it mustn't have high secondary accuracy, parry, or determination(170/180 aiming boots come to mind)

If they reworked iSync, pvp gear to avoid high secondary det( make it crit/skillspell speed) and to a lesser extent accuracy(accuracy cap is super low, 1-2 low secondary accuracy pieces are sufficient-looking at you i205 fending accessories) and morale properly, you'd be aiming to gain wolf marks because pvp gear would ultimately be BiS.

[Iagainsti]

Iphone contd.

I mentioned earlier a scalig bonus system for morale. In such a system, you'd want to stack morale to hit the next bonus level. Now I wish whoever was assigning pvp gear stats on the dev team actually pvp'd with the classes to see how different stats work with the way the class was played. If a melee dps left side had all high secondaries Crit/skill speed with low secondary determination that covered the caps for 150 sync, we'd want to use them, and get the marks to buy them. Reserve accuracy to low secondaries for right side, and that gives players customization options. Some healers will run Vit specs to utilize casting int accessories, some will mix/match int/vit. Some dps might take Vit to survive early till they have full left side pvp or more ap.

[Februs]

Snip

Another noteworthy point is that re-implementing the Morale System, in some form or another, would encourage SE to take a long hard look at PvP gear on the whole.

With Feast, SE is already taking PvP updates seriously. It still needs work, obviously, but they're putting in an effort. They're asking for feedback. They have future plans for the mode. They've already made several adjustments (though more tweaking is needed) Etc. These are things that almost never happened in the 2.x patch cycle; so, it's a huge improvement to see them now. PvP gear, however, is still lack luster.

Since the ilvl 110 sets, the gear has been getting more and more generic in design and it lacks any practical use. With the death of Morale came the death of PvP gear sets, and with the death of our gear sets came the death of the Wolf Mark currency. The only real use most people got out of it was de-synthesizing PvP gear to turn a profit. I don't think I need to point out how pitiful that is. I still think that they should vastly expand the Vendor selections, but even if they only re-implemented Morale, it would at least give us a reason to use our Wolf Marks. Further, the way they chose to implement Morale can make all the difference. Personally, I'm not a fan of a straight item level increase for a few reasons, but that's not the only option. The old stat bonus could be revived. It could bolster PVP actions. It could change resistances, or the bonus provided might be different on a piece by piece basis on a job by job basis. There are a lot of possibilities here, and those possibilities could potentially provide far more options for customizing our PvP kits rather than just running in the highest currently available gear, which is pretty much what everyone does right now.

[Dimitrii]

For fk's sake SE please do something about this nonsense of Monk's being able to remove a fundamental and core ability of scholars. I am not a sch and even I can see how incredibly ridiculous this is. The amount of griefing schs endure must be immeasurable as no one wants to see them on their team let alone if there is a monk on the other side of the arena. Even worse was this buff that was given to monks via somersault. I understand the mindset of it was probably to have that spell speed reduction counter the 15% HP spellcasting threshhold, as well as to compensate for the fact that monks attacks are fast but weak compared to say DRG to break that threshhold, but by doing this you are figuratively flipping off schs. Perfect balance every 40 seconds when aetherflow recast is 60 seconds like wtf. I feel bad for the abuse schs get, as many will suffer verbal abuse from ignorant players screaming "wheres my cures?!", when its not even their fault that their job has this handicap and the monk is stripping their primary heal away like its just another buff.

[Ultimatecalibur]

The question shouldn't be "What do we do with Morale?" but "What (non-overwhelming) advantage should PvP gear have in PvP over PvE gear and how do you prevent it from being must have for PvE content?"

The original implementation of Morale was originally intended to balance PvP and PvE gear without making PvP gear BiS for PvE content. Morale's combination damage boost and damage reduction was supposed to make up for the the difference in HP and Weapon damage that 15 to 20 ilevels generated, a gap that existed to prevent PvE gear from becoming must have for PvE progression. Morale was supposed to allow those in i55 PvP gear effectively fight opponents in i70 PvE gear equally and those in i70 PvP gear fight opponents in i90 PvE gear equally. In "balanced" matches between characters geared i70 PvP gear and i90 PvE gear the players in PvP gear had a slight (but not completely overwhelming) advantage due to better inherent itemization (all PvP gear had Det, Skill Speed, Spell Speed or Crit in addition to Morale) and materia slots (intended to hold anti-status materia in order to meta CC effects). The current version of Morale would do roughly the same thing but is limited by all PvP being under an ilevelsync make increased ilevel mostly meaningless.

Problems occurred because level 50 pvp matched players in i50 PvE gear against players in i70 PvP and i90 PvE gear. An undergeared newbie facing fully geared vets is not a fun introduction to PvP. i80 synced PvP modes pretty much solved the balance problem when introduced, but the damage inflicted on Wolf's Den was so great that there was no real way for it to recover and so it was mostly abandoned.

[Destyno]

Greetings,

During the Japanese PvP stream "Adrenaline Rush TV," Yoshida explained that morale won't take effect inside of the Feast and that the dev. team is having trouble figuring out how they should move forward with the attribute. They also considered removing it entirely. The dev. team is continuing to look into it with thoughts such as making it so morale doesn't directly make players stronger, but does strengthen them in a different matter.

That said, we would like to hear your comments and suggestions regarding morale so the dev. team can use them as reference.

Also, we would like to gather any feedback you may have after trying out the changes made in Patch 3.25, so please be sure to send them in as well!

he moral difference is from a real sense of the pvp gear but pvp gear needs to be done to create a party ranks as it was before and without synchronization

[Februs]

The question shouldn't be "What do we do with Morale?" but "What (non-overwhelming) advantage should PvP gear have in PvP over PvE gear and how do you prevent it from being must have for PvE content?"

I'm not sure that there's an answer to that question, because it's inevitable that something becomes Best in Slot. Even in PvE content, which has far greater gear variety than PvP, eventually one specific combination of gear becomes the end of the line. FFXIV is simply designed that way. There's no real gear customization outside of glamours, because there's no variance in how a jobs are supposed to be played. A Tank is a tank, for example, and all tanks need the same stats; therefore, they all end up using the same gear. PvP is no different.

That said, I don't think that this will be nearly as big of a problem as it was back in the original Wolves Den or Frontlines game modes, because there is no longer any restrictions on who can buy PvP gear. Even if PvP gear provides an advantage in PvP that makes it BiS for that game mode, it really isn't offering anyone an unfair advantage because anyone can pick up a set without worrying about rank restrictions. New players to PvP might have to deal with some growing pains while they come up with the Wolf Marks to actually buy a set of PvP armour, but given how quickly you can get Wolf Marks, it shouldn't take too long for them to catch up.

In the end, as much as the removal of Rank Restrictions on PvP gear was a kick in the nuts to any players who actually put that effort in, it really would work out to be a favourable change should Morale be re-implemented because it would help level the playing field.

[Iagainsti]

"What do we do with Morale?" but "What (non-overwhelming) advantage should PvP gear have in PvP over PvE gear and how do you prevent it from being must have for PvE content?

Pvp gear should have a great advantage over PVE gear, PVE gear with great stats should be the stepping stone to pvp, but ultimately you should want the pvp set for your class. If they rework morale and hopefully future pvp sets, it should be the the goal for all avid pvp players. PVE gear<pvp gear<rank should be the order imo.
Worried about new player gear curve? No restrictions now! New players can do one Frontline roulette, and lose two 8v8 matches and voila, they now have enough wolf marks for a 180 fending and class specific accessory. The added Vit from one, and the morale from both should help survivability. The new player curve went extinct as soon as they removed rank restrictions. Now the dev team just needs to fix morale and improve on pvp sets.

[Guesswhat]

How about "reversing" the morale attribute role. Morale increase item lvl in all but PvP areas? In that case it would be pretty confusing to read the stats though lol.

Morale: shortens queue time to PvP content <- THIS

[Ultimatecalibur]

I'm not sure that there's an answer to that question, because it's inevitable that something becomes Best in Slot. Even in PvE content, which has far greater gear variety than PvP, eventually one specific combination of gear becomes the end of the line. FFXIV is simply designed that way. There's no real gear customization outside of glamours, because there's no variance in how a jobs are supposed to be played. A Tank is a tank, for example, and all tanks need the same stats; therefore, they all end up using the same gear. PvP is no different.

BiS isn't a problem. Its the size of the gaps between BiS gearing, average gearing and entry gearing is where the problems lie. My question was basically "what advantages should a character wearing PvP BiS have over those not in PvP BiS and how big should this advantage be?"

That said, I don't think that this will be nearly as big of a problem as it was back in the original Wolves Den or Frontlines game modes, because there is no longer any restrictions on who can buy PvP gear. Even if PvP gear provides an advantage in PvP that makes it BiS for that game mode, it really isn't offering anyone an unfair advantage because anyone can pick up a set without worrying about rank restrictions. New players to PvP might have to deal with some growing pains while they come up with the Wolf Marks to actually buy a set of PvP armour, but given how quickly you can get Wolf Marks, it shouldn't take too long for them to catch up.

Gear rank restrictions were not the problem. It was gearing disparity between fresh level 50 characters joining level 50 PvP for the first time and those that had fully geared themselves.

The original implementation of Morale created an incredible gear gap between those in i70 PvP gear and those in i50 entry gear. The incredible damage and defense boost granted by Morale made facing an i70 PvPer a near-impossible challenge for anyone but those fully geared in i90.

It currently takes between 65 (winning all) and 130 (losing all) Feast matches in order to buy a full set of the i180 gear. A set of i205 gear requires 191 wins or 381 losses to buy.

In the end, as much as the removal of Rank Restrictions on PvP gear was a kick in the nuts to any players who actually put that effort in, it really would work out to be a favourable change should Morale be re-implemented because it would help level the playing field.

Not really. If Morale was returned to its original form and ilevelsync did not nullify it, it would still create an incredible gap between the PvP gear haves and have nots as the offense and defense boosts would easily overwhelm skill.