Thread: 3.2 PvP: Feast Game Mode Discussion Thread.

PLD is a tough one because you have to be hugely aware of what is happening and how other classes work. If people tell you to be on Healers/Casters 100%, ignore them. You can't stop that healer from casting once they are resist, you can't stop a BLM from knocking out Fire IVs if they are resist too.

It's about picking a good time to stun, BRD popped Barrage? Stun lock him instantly and finish with a Glory Slash. MCH got all buffs up and popped Rapid Fire? Same again and wave goodbye to MCH for a bit. Same again for when a BLM got leylines and Enochan up; when the healers are having a hard time with enemy melee, stun to throw them off; if a enemy DPS is nearly dying, do it to a healer. You aren't supposed to be on someone 100% of the time, you do nothing to your group if you do this.

Testudo should be used fairly short into the game and then used pretty much on CD. For tank LB, you need to be aware of enemy LBs. If you just got your LB, 90% of the time an enemy DPS has just got their LB. Read your enemies and judge if you think they are about to LB and use yours.

Oof. I think I actually made everything harder by switching to PLD... as WAR my biggest problem was targets slipping away during Zerk and then I felt useless... now my problem is I can't have 4 Focus targets at once and memorize 13 * 30 abilities and behaviors and exist in 3 locations simultaneously every GCD and no I Blinded when I should have Stunned and Stunned when I should have Silenced and KB'd when I should have Blinded and why didn't you LB vs. that Bind+Cometeor and Noooo I forgot about Purify and GET THE MEDALS GET THE MEDALS nooooo the NIN got the medals now they're going to explode and no, you forgot Stoneskin and NO you cast Stoneskin when you should have attacked and and and ...

Blame the Tank, indeed.

But that advice helped a lot, thank you. This is going better now that I'm beginning to form a clear idea of where I belong on the field and what I should be doing. It's gone from "O_O HELP" to "I just need more practice".

Originally Posted by Eorzean_username

It's definitely an ego refresh. After working hard and practicing for months to feel like a fairly confident PvE Tank, PvP has reduced me to feeling like my first day in Sastasha all over again.

I'm pretty sure everyone who actually takes an earnest stab at PvP goes through a similar experience at one point or another, Tanks and Healers especially.Though, you might find Pld is the more difficult choice out of the tanks to play as. They tend to have a more complicated role, because their utility and CC are so high. They have to divide their attention a lot more between offense, defense, and support, and they have to be very aware of what's going on around them at all times to make the correct judgement call on where they are most needed. By comparison, War has a somewhat more singular focus, because their Dps utility heavily outweighs their other utilities. As for your questions, here's some two cents:

Targeting:

This varies a lot depending on if you're playing on console or PC, but there are a few tricks you can use to help yourself see through the clutter.

The first thing you will probably want to do (especially as Pld) is slap a marker on your healer ( "circle," "triangle," 'target to ignore," etc). You can pick whatever marker makes it easier to see them in the crowd. That way you always know where they are, can keep them in range, and maintain line of sight. In emergencies, it also makes it easier to throw up a Cover or Clemency cast.

The second thing you'll want to do is cycle through all of your opponents. You want to do this quickly at the start of the match (as soon as they're in range) so you can get a feel for the field. Things to look for are, 1) who has the offensive buff? 2) who has the defensive buff? and 3) where is the healer?* Knowing which targets have the defensive/offensive buff will give you an idea of which targets will be attacked by your dps team, and which will be ignored. You can also anticipate what's going to happen, and which target is best to use Full Swing on (though, ultimately, the dps will be the biggest deciding factor). It also lets you know which target is the highest threat to your healer, meaning that you can keep an eye on them and hit them with the occasional stun to interrupt their bust. *Most importantly, it allows you to identify the enemy healer before combat has started, and Focus Target them.

I Focus Target the enemy healer for two reasons. The fist, is that I can always see their cast bar. I know what they're casting and when they're casting it at all times. Secondly, Focus Target marks the healer with an arrow. It's not as noticeable as a marker, but it's better to use because it avoids confusion. I don't want to put a giant circle over the enemy healer's head and accidentally make the dps think I want them to burn him/her. Focus target allows me to keep up a visible marker without imposing it on the rest of the team.

After that, actual targeting comes down to practice. Tabbing through targets is not nearly as fast as point and click, so it's best to get comfortable with adjusting your camera on the fly to give you the best possible lines of sight on your enemies. An elevated view tends to help with this. On console it's a little trickier, since we don't have a point and click option. I tend to use what I call the 'circle jerk' method, which relies on good auto targeting. That method also relies on keeping the camera in the best possible angle. A direct line of sight will often land you on the target you want.

What I should be doing with myself / Tools:

I wouldn't worry too much about your Dps when you're playing on Pld. On War, high output is your primary utility, so it's all about the Dps. On Pld, though, your time is better spent exercising your maximum CC and utility. My best matches on Pally have seen Dps numbers as low as 40k to as high as 90k. I average around 50k a match, which is pitiful, but there's a damn good reason for it. Most of my time is spent identifying pesky targets and stun-locking them. Unfortunately, outside of a few oGCD's, Pld's cannot Dps and Stun lock at the same time. This means that, during a full duration stun lock (9 seconds), I'm outputting almost no Dps. What I am doing, though, is buying the rest of the team time. If I can stun lock a Healer for 9 seconds, then my Dps should (and they damn well better) be able to murder something in that time. If they didn't, then the fault is with them, not me. You are right that you have to divide your attention a LOT as a Pld, though. Playing it well comes to making good judgment calls base don the circumstances, so there's not universal guidebook. There are, however, a few tips and ticks to use to your advantage:

The first is your CC timer. After 3 stuns, the target resists. That resist lasts a full minute, and a Pld's Dps is not high enough (even at maximum burst) to cause interrupts to cast bars without it. Meaning that, while a target is resisting, you're just wasting your time if you keep smacking them around without additional Dps support. Do something else. Check your party. If the healer needs help, go help. If not, help the Dps. After a full minute has gone by, you can go back to stun-locking.

Secondly, spread out your stuns. Pld's have the most fluidly applied stun in the game, so you can hit a lot of targets in a short time. Don't be afraid to smack someone with one. Your primary targets are whoever has the offensive buff, or anyone using their burst. You have to look for the tells. For example, see a War using a Fell Cleave? they might be starting their burst of a double or triple Fell Cleave. If you really want to piss in their cornflakes, smack them with a stun and watch their burst fall apart.

Another thing to note about stuns is that you do not have to use their full duration. Even a single stun can really throw a wrench into things if it's timed well, because stuns are primarily used to buy your healer time to keep up with the damage. The only targets that you should always be using a full stun-lock on is the enemy healer, because it maximizes your dps team's up time. Otherwise, a single stun is often enough, and it allows you to stay mobile and active. You shouldn't be stunning all the time. The CC resist timer means that you can waste a stun. So use them when they're actually useful, and remember to apply your DoT's in the meantime.

Party defense is less tricky, because it's used as needed. You should not be disengaging to re-apply buffs unless you absolutely have to. In the heat of combat, it's better to use moves like Clemency, Divine Veil, Cover, or Testudo to protect the team. Stoneskin and protect are best left unused unless there is a lull in the combat (such as if the enemy healer dies and their team retreats to regroup). You should also be prioritizing who you use those buffs on. Targets that have Heavy Medal vulnerability take priority, especially if you're low on mana. In general, Testudo and DV are best used in an alternating fashion, because they have a lengthy CD. However, if the teams are evenly matched you may want to hold off on using them. If you expect a "Culling Time" to happen, you'll be happy to have those party buffs at the ready. Otherwise, use them as needed. Cover is trickier, because you have to be very quick on your application, and it's not always easy to tell when it's actually needed. Most often, it's a roll of the dice. However, in the case of healer's it's always a good idea to use it on them if you see them activate "Attunement." That's a last ditch effort for a healer, so if you see them locked in place and dodging a shit ton of attacks, throw up a Cover and a Clemency to help them out. It will be especially useful if they don't have any oGCD heals at the ready.

As for Full Swing, in the case of Pld's it's more of a party support ability than a personal Dps boost. War's can see an immediate effect, but they have a very strong burst. Pld's do not, so it's best to use Full Swing on whatever target your dps are trying to burn and then swapping to the healer to suppress their heals as much as you can during that time. For this reason, I typically time my Full Swings to the stun resist of the enemy healer, so that I can use them in tandem. I spend most of my time on Pld supporting the Dps. I only, grudgingly, go back to healer defense if they look like they're having a hard time.

Glory Slash is often better used for extending your healer suppression. The full Pld lock-down is 3 stuns (timed for full duration) followed by a Spirits Within (silence) and a Glory Slash, because the knockback interrupts a cast. That said, early in the match you may want to vary it's utility. The reason for this is that, after 3 stuns and SW, the enemy healer will be utterly desperate to get a heal off. Most enemy healers will panic and burn a oGCD like benediction, and you can't interrupt that. The good news is that you forced them to burn it early. The bad news is that they probably saved the target and neither SW or GS will have prevented it, so it might be best to go for maximum damage output instead of maximum lockdown. That's a roll of the dice, though, since you can never truly know what the enemy healer will do or how fast your dps are. If they kill the target before your stuns even wear off, then you might as well use GS for it's utility rather than it's interrupt. It's a case by case basis thing, and you have to be very aware of what's going on around you to know the best use.

Hope that helps. Pld is pretty complicated to use. I'd say it has the highest skill ceiling of the three tanks to use well in PvP, but if you can do it it's very rewarding. Whatever you do, though, DO NOT listen to the idiots who think you should be on the healer all the time. It is one of the most ignorant things that anyone can say about a Pld in PvP, and it a MASSIVE waste of utility. Trust your gut, and keep your eyes open. Pld is all about situational awareness, so have some fun with it and get some experience under your belt.

Originally Posted by Februs

Hope that helps. Pld is pretty complicated to use. I'd say it has the highest skill ceiling of the three tanks to use well in PvP, but if you can do it it's very rewarding. Whatever you do, though, DO NOT listen to the idiots who think you should be on the healer all the time. It is one of the most ignorant things that anyone can say about a Pld in PvP, and it a MASSIVE waste of utility. Trust your gut, and keep your eyes open. Pld is all about situational awareness, so have some fun with it and get some experience under your belt.

Confirming, a PLD on me as BRD during the 15 seconds I'm locked into Wanderer's Minuet is obnoxious because Empyreal Arrow is interruptible.

I have PLDs on me as a healer... and I have PLDs on me as a DPS... when will I get some damn peace.

Thank you Februs, that's also a lot of really helpful information. Some of it is confirming what I'm discovering through trial and error, some of it is new (like using Focus for a non-confusing marker), but all of it is making more sense of what started out as spaghetti chaos.


Glory Slash

I semi-gave up on using Glory Slash to purge buffs, because usually there's just too many on any one target and by the time Glory Slash goes off, it's sort-of a roulette whether it even removes the correct buff.

Glory Slash is excellent, however, for launching Healers out of range of their teammates, launching angry MDPS out of range of my teammates, or sending unfortunate BLMs to their doom in Seal Rock when they Ley Line on the edge of a cliff.

Role on the field and target choices

Overall, this is totally overwhelming, but the more I learn to observe and understand other classes and the current combat situation, the more useful I feel as PLD. At first it was just "Stuns for everyone!" and I still felt overwhelmed, but now I'm starting to learn when it's okay to not Stun and just patiently wait for the right moment to properly mess up someone's plans.

No matter what I do, though, I end a match thinking about ~50 things I forgot to check on or keep track of during the fight, and ~50 things I should have done differently.

It seems so simple at first, but checking at all times the scoreboard, all the enemy buffs, ally debuffs, enemy + ally positions, allied Healer LOS, enemy Healer distance/LOS, enemy tells/positions/behavior clues, who our DPS is focusing and when to step in and assist, etc etc ... oof. It's a lot.

I really like this, though. As a PvE Tank, PLD PvP makes sense to me now that the general idea has been explained. The methods are different, but I'm still trying to position carefully, protect everyone, rotate defenses, lock down threats, throw out support as opportunity allows, watch the field, generate massive Enmity in opponents, etc.

I also have immense appreciation for Healers and DPS, who somehow magically keep everyone alive and/or make someone die while I'm running around trying to do all this stuff.

Few thoughts of my own about The Feast, just dropping it here as a feedback in case devs are interested in that sort of thing.

1) Why is 8v8 not labeled as 'practice mode' in Duty Finder? DF is the only sieve that lets people into Feast and I'm sure everyone has met their share of people who should've had at least one practice match before they got dropped into someone's qualifier, sometimes with first-timer achievements (seen it).

At the moment, nothing really prepares new players for the slightly different ebb and flow of PVP, let alone informs them of the existence of PVP abilities. Nothing promotes this except for maybe the teammates they'll get in their first matches, and that's usually with a gratuitous punch of salt.

PVP in general could do with a tutorial, especially with Hall of the Novice in place.

continuing in next post, 1000 character limit...

2) Currently, Feast season is too long. Ideally, in my opinion, it should start little after a new patch release so that the casuals that I bet make up for the majority of the queues can get their PVE stuff out of the way, and just as they would start to get bored, voila, new season.

Not the way it is now. Queues are already stagnating, and I'll go over that shortly, and then we have 3.3 on its way which will entice what little we have in the queues to participate in other content - for some time, at least. But then Shatter is coming in as well. And this season is meant to go on until 3.35..?

An example: new patch drops, let's call it 3.4. People clear story, people check out new raids, new recipes, etc. etc. Two-three-four weeks later, 3.41 starts a new Feast season. Just before 3.5, 3.46 or 3.49, call it as you may, bookends the season. Repeat for the next patch cycle.

dat 1000 character limit

3) Introduce some sort of ratings decay due to non-participation. Nothing severe, but enough to keep the music on for the top 100, instead of allowing people just sit through and in return stalling what could be a more active part of the game.

I've got nothing on matchmaking or job balance, it is what it is.

you can edit a post to bypass the 1000 limit

Originally Posted by a_man_has_no_name

Why is 8v8 not labeled as 'practice mode' in Duty Finder?

Whereas, I most certainly agree that people should get some PvP experience under their belt before hoping into ranked 4v4 matches, 8v8 isn't really adequate as a "practice mode."

Compared to 4 versus 4, 8 versus 8 is an unorganized mess. The speed of the match is different, and there is much less significance placed on personal skill and tactical know-how. The difference in party size is the main issue. Having 8 party members provides too much coddling to be considered real "practice." You don't learn anything about the party coordination and job proficiency required in a 4v4 match when you're hiding behind the skirts of your 7 other teammates. You also lack the ability to queue up with other players who are looking for practice. There's no pre-mades in 8v8. A lot of the players in there are just old Front Line players who are biding their time for shatter and don't really care about more competitive game modes; so, the environment is not conducive to learning. It's fun, but it just doesn't do a good enough job to prepare people for the increased intensity of a ranked match.

A dedicated "Practice Mode" or "Practice Arena" would be a far better option. In my opinion, Wolves Den should be expanded with an area or arena which allows for Duels or Skirmishes. That way, players could communicate and learn from one another. They could also party up for for a skirmish to test out their skills in a Wolves Den styled environment. It still wouldn't be quite the same as Feast, but it would go miles for giving new players a foundation to stand on instead of just dropping them in with the sharks. If they tied the mentor system into it and provided adequate incentives for people to actually become PvP mentors, something like this might actually get off the ground.