Thread: 3.2 PvP: Feast Game Mode Discussion Thread.

hmm, it depends on how you play it, if you're paired up against all golds and platinums like i have, having a Ninja vs a Dragoon and summoner you can definitely see the huge amounts of damage being dealt, they are going to strengthen it for a reason.

Ugh... Adding fetterward to ninja only made them somewhat able to hold a candle to drgs and mnks... and about the "Utility" Ninja is great with utility! In PVE... most utilities are pointless like trick attack and slashing debuff that was nerfed anyway. Try hitting positionals when a thirsty DPS or healer keeps squirming like they're on acid xD

Originally Posted by Februs

Don't worry so much about being dead weight. Just go for it. If it makes you feel better, try to keep in mind that most people who play Feast don't actually have a clue how to play a Tank properly in this game mode as it is.

Okay, thanks. ^^ It's not so much people being mad at me (too enured from tanking PvE) as just really not wanting to ruin other people's play time. I know it can be very frustrating to be force-matched with players that aren't on the same level of gameplay understanding.

I'm trying to at least do some research now before I jump in. I'm definitely reading and noting all the guidelines here so far. A few random questions that have come to mind while I've been reading (not sure how much carries over between PvE / PvP):

• Is there a set of recommend cross-class actions for PvP? Does Provoke do anything in PvP, like force a target switch, or should I just swap it out? (My usual loadout is IR, Aware, Convalesce, Second Wind, Provoke)
• Should I swap to Defiance outside burst periods to reduce pressure on heals, or just ignore it because of the nasty –Dmg effect?
• Is Storm's Path (10% dmg down) effective in PvP, should I be keeping it up on dangerous targets?
• Is Storm's Eye (10% slash resist) as important as it is in PvE?
• Are dots like Fracture useful pressure / Esuna-pollution, or should I not waste the GCD / TP? Do dots keep NIN out of stealth?

Also, does Rating stay the same between Jobs / Roles? That could get dangerous, for example going from experience Tanking into trying out Healing but being thrown in to higher-rank matches right away.

I really don't like posting on these forums and have no interest in discussing things with players. But I deeply want pvp to be better in FFXIV so I'm making these posts in a vain hope that maybe a devolper who matters might consider my opinions. I know it's naive and silly, but I have to try! This feedback is for 4v4 solo queue and it is aimed at gms/devolpers/yoshi or whoever it is that is in charge.


Just to set a little context; I absolutely loved the original den. I started this game, got to 30, tried pvp, then spent a huge majority of time in the den, first night I pvp'd I couldn't even sleep cause I was too excited theroy crafting out my marauder.
I leveled my marauder to 50 mostly through the den. I played 30's and 40's and used that as a means to gear myself. Since I didn't PVE and the only thing I knew was den and story mode dungeons, I was just a pvp Marauder/drg/pal (but I couldn't play drg.pal, because I had to spend wolf marks to switch clas traits), I had to get to rank 30 and save up enough wolf marks to buy an i90 direwolf set, so that I could have some gears to enter 50 pvp when I finally reached it. 30's and 40's were occupied by premades and dead because of it. Back then players didn't even start with skills pvp skills, you had to earn them, it was absolutely grueling facing these premades over and over and over as you literally had no chance, your healers would be new with no pvp skills and barely even got to their job (quite often still being a class), and would have barely even experienced the game itself, they would die in 2 seconds and the matches would end within a min. And the queues were horrendous when the match making was put in place. But I still enjoyed it and got my gears in the end and thoroughly enjoyed 50's den. But then den was dead on secure arrival, and it only got worse with time. point of all that is just to show how much of a fan I was of den.

I've been waiting nearly 2 years for it's revival. Then we get feast...


I want to say that I love certain things that they've done with the feast.
Implementing a solo-queue was the best thing ever for me. Premades really caused a lot of people to quit original den and even frontlines. And seeing that there was modes catered to both solo and party play was like a dream come true. I would really like to see future pvp modes follow a similar concept.

The fact that 4v4 is the primary mode was also a great news to me. I dreaded 8vs8 when I heard about it and felt it would be just a big zerg fest, and I really didn't like that idea.
Seeing that this was treated as nothing but a training ground, was again, very good news to me. It's small scale pvp combat, which I love, and what I feel FFXIV needs much, much more of. I'm really tired of zerg.

But outside of that, I can't find too much other positive things to say about the fest.
Just to state, these are just my personal gripes with the feast and only that, if you love everything about the feast, more power to you, I got no qualms with that.

It's mostly the medals that kill it for me. It's like the medals were put in as a joke, so that players would have endless stories to tell about the ludicrous situations they are put in.
Every game is nerve racking for me, because it always comes down to someone ignoring what people have said, and then picking up way too many medals, of and of course, picking up no medals. I have no control over this. I can do everything right, and setup an extreme advantage for our team, only to see that wasted because someone decided to pick up too many medals. Our team can even die, and lose the advantage, and I can pull it back again, only to see them do the exact same thing again.

I don't mind random teammates really, I'm used to it. I can be put in a severe disadvantages team skill wise, and turn things around, and this is usually the case. But when you throw medals into the mix, it's one step too far.
I can still turn things around in spite of the handicap, but it is nothing but a frustrating process to me and it's very far away from the competitive and "balanced gameplay" I was looking for.
You know how frustrating it is to see the SMN pick up 10 stacks after you've slaughtered the enemy? To have to fight tooth and nail to carry a tank and range that can't kill a thing, finally pull off the kills to put you back in the lead, only to have the tank pick up everything and get 1 shot by an LB? It's comical gameplay at best and it just gives me a headache being put in these situations over and over again. I just can't stress enough how unfun it is to be put in games repeatedly where the deciding factor is someone not listening about medals. There is occasions where I do get games where medals aren't an issue, and these can be quite enjoyable. But they are sadly greatly outweighed.
Give me a handicap straight up 4v4 deathmatch, and I can turn it around and have fun.
Do the same but remove deathmatch and throw in medals and instant kill limits and it just leads to ludicrous situations that are like something out of a Monty Python skit, and I just don't enjoy myself much, even if I turn it around, and I often do, it's just an unsatisfying experience. When skill isn't the deciding factor, but a player picking up 5+ medals is, I have little interest in playing.

Then you throw in the queue times on top of this. The queues were fine until I hit gold. Now I'm switching around my schedule just to get into games, queueing at multiple different time windows, only to have to wait more time than I can bear, to get matches that are again, comical at best. Matchmaking killed the original den. I thought after that being clear as day I wouldn't have to deal with it in the feast... I was wrong.
There is no tutorial for the feast in game, players don't understand how medals work, and how to deal with them, it means the same mistakes are repeated time and time again and it gets old pretty fast.
Too big a number of my games in both pre-season and season 1 have been lost due to this, and I'm very tired of it.
Those are the main reasons I guess I'm finished with current installment of the feast. If only this mode was just 4v4 straight combat like old den but at 60, if only
I feel the mode has potential, and maybe in the future when people know more (wishful thinking) I won't find it as frustrating. But for now, it ain't worth the queue time for me.


Then lets see.. Apart from my personal gripes above, these are the problems I see with the actual gameplay of the mode and things I feel really need to be worked upon.

One of the main problems I see with the feast and now PVP in general is the change that came from 3.2? tank changes and the fact that most games end via a timeout.

You gave tanks way more HP and nerfed their damage potential.
This makes tanks way to hard to kill. And this is to me, the main factor that leads to boring and prolonged matches.

Tanks have what 14/15k hp (more with defiance), ontop of insane damage mitigation skills and a last stand invincibility move, and the innate pvp reduction they get (20%? vs physical), and self heals.

So I'll start off a game, kill the healer, then we kill the dps and ranged, but unless the tank is dumb and stands still, I can't finish off the game. I need to re-kill their other players a few times, without my team-mates dieing (while they have the medal handicap) in the mean time.

Matches were ending in ties too often so I believe you increased the adr rates and offense boxes. But this actually does the opposite of making the match end quick.
Because you give losing teams LB's, they pull back a kill, now your team has to get off that many more kills to end the game .

It's just too hard to finish off a tank in it's current state, ontop of all their survivability, you have to counter the healer healing them and their team-mates peeling for them, and even if you do, theres that last stand that skill that just sees them survive anways. This makes it so tanks are usually a no go, which lessens your combat options.

In the original den, tanks were mostly a no go too, but they didn't have as much skills back then, and nowhere near as much HP... so if a tank got cocky or you needed to switch things up, the option was there.

If tanks had their old HP and damage back matches would play out very differently.
Matches wouldn't suffer from the constant stagnated games that result in timeouts.
Tanks would do more damage and they would be much easier to kill. Games would be so much more enjoyable like this imo.

So you've given tanks a lot more hp, and nerfed their damage potential. But that HP is useless unless they are being targeted, and usually in pvp there is little reason to target them.
So you have to create an incentive, medals! I feel this is extremely shortsighted. What about modes where there are no medals? No incentive to hit them? They are just sitting there with nerfed damage, horrendously bad mobility, and wasted high HP and to what end?

Why did this change need to happen in pvp? Most good pvp mmo's allow tanks some sort of customization to specialize differently for pvp, pvp specs. They are not tanks in the traditional sense, but "tanky" quasi DPS. They usually have better utility/mitigation/self heals or something then actual DPS so they are still "tanky", sometimes very.

I don't see what was the need to pull tanks further away from being killers, and giving them this HP. This change shouldn't have applied to pvp.

I loved my paladin, I loved my warrior, and I even loved my dark knight on the rare occasion that I played it. It was one of my long term goals to try and really learn dark knight in pvp properly and make it my main pvp tank. Because I loved how strong it's on command burst was (crazy with fever). But now? I got no interest in playing these tanks. The worst mobility in the game, insanely bad mobility at that, CC magnets who are near defenseless against CC and now they have pitiful damage? Yeah, that killed all my interest in playing them in pvp and I know for a fact I'm not the only one, I've seen multiple pvp tanks quit due to this.

I'm not saying tanks didn't need some nerfs, or damage changes, they could have received some for sure, warrior especially was over-tuned. And I'm not saying tanks can't kill or do damage in their current state, sure they can still, but it's pitiful compared to what it was before, and it was to me a very short sighted change that greatly diminished the enjoyability of the class in pvp for very little reason.
This is something I feel really should change for pvp.

Speaking of their low damage, I was in frontlines the other day on scholar against three tanks, just messing around with them, and they could do absolutely nothing to me damage wise cause I could just cast through their pitiful damage.
I wouldn't have died to them before all these changes or anything, but I would have at least been a little threatened. Now I just stand there spamming adlo while they can't really even cast break me, at least not enough to matter. Their damage sucks and I have to much ability to freecast.

And speaking of which. Thats another short sighted change. I can cast so, so often now under-pressure, mindlessly even. Before I needed to work for every cast, now it's brainless.
Okay in the feast, it may balance out to a degree, but what about in other combat modes? How is that countered, when a healer can't be interrupted and has free reign to CC, CC, CC and heal, too much power in their casts?
What is the counter now to that, zerg? Battle fever? LB? These are real imbalances that are leftover from feast and will spill into other pvp modes from what I feel are nothing more than quick fix solutions to make the feast more playable to a wider audience.

Funnily enough, I found this post made by me 2 years ago talking about this situation.

Originally Posted by tehomegaking

Casters are designed so that their casts can be decisive factors in an encounter. This forces you into selectively choosing which to use and when, and which cooldowns to sacrifice to get said skill off. Give WHM freecasting and they become a god. There is no class in any MMO ever that would be this overpowering... not even scholars from ragnarok online. A freecasting WHM can heal what damage you do with ease, disable an entire party in multiple ways, hell, it can even kill you with ease.

This game designed with a very specific plan in mind. You can't just add freecasting and expect things to work. You'd need a complete rebelancing of the entire system. Thats why this won't happen.

Since then they removed cleric, but most of it still applies. They don't quite have freecasting, but it's not far away at this point.



Oh, and I almost forgot, the LB's. Limit breaks are simply an imbalance that is thrown out to anyone. You can have truly low skill DPS, that can't do anything, but they can turn around the game purely by being granted access to limit break. Not to mention the adr rate, some games where we are just dominating I'm spamming 3 LB's a match. How is that fair? Do people enjoy that on the other end? I've never had to deal with it myself, but I can imagine it's painful to play against.

LB's could be a cool and interesting gimmick that open up gameplay further. Why do we only have access to one? The beauty of limit breaks throughout the series is that they offer choice and even utility. But this is simply absent in FFXIV. They could be plugging the holes in your gameplay, and giving you further utility. As a melee for example, I'd like a limit break that was a defensive cooldown that was actually worth while. Or access to a strong ranged attack, maybe even a self heal, lancet is a series staple that is just missing from our toolkit could be put right in there? These are just ideas, obviously all classes would get similar options that further fleshed out their class and added utility. I'd like to see limit breaks done over, current implementation of them in pvp is just overpowered and dull and offers no variation.


I could really go on and on about the imbalances and class issues, but these are the main things that I feel really need a proper look at rather than quick fix solutions.

Originally Posted by Eorzean_username

I know it can be very frustrating to be force-matched with players that aren't on the same level of gameplay understanding.

That's understandable. The thing is, the only way anyone is gonna get up to the same level of gameplay as those above them is with experience; so, you're gonna have to dive in sooner or later. The only reason we mention not listening to the bad mouthing is because tensions run higher than they should for a lot of people (especially considering most of them will never make the top of the rankings anyway, just based on time available), and not all of them actually know what they're complaining about. Tanking and Healing tend to get the worst of it. I, and I'm sure many others, could tell you horror stories about the mindless and completely ignorant complaints we get in Feast.

As for your questions, I'll do what I can to answer them, but keep in mind that I do not main a War in Feast; so, not all of my answers will be spot on. You might find things to be a little different when you get first hand experience. Hopefully I'm not too far off the mark, though, and someone can always correct me if I say something that's wrong.

Originally Posted by Eorzean_username

Is there a set of recommend cross-class actions for PvP? Does Provoke do anything in PvP, like force a target switch, or should I just swap it out? (My usual loadout is IR, Aware, Convalesce, Second Wind, Provoke)

Provoke is useless in PvP. It does nothing, not even force a temporary jump in targeting. Normally, I wouldn't recommend bothering to switch it out, because swapping your skill set every time you want to PvE or PvP is a pain in the ass (though, I suppose you could macro it); however, War's do get a potential benefit from ditching Provoke. Given that provoke is a throw-away ability in PvP, there's nothing to stop you from getting a little boost out of Mantra, which, in my opinion, is your best cross-class PvP option. The reason for this is because War generally lacks party defense utility in PvP. 5% additional healing is crap, to be honest, but it's still better than nothing, especially compared to Haymaker or Feather Foot. War doesn't need additional mitigation or Dps. All in all, though, I don't think anyone will notice if you don't change a thing about your cross-class abilities. The edge they give you in the arena is marginal at best.

Originally Posted by Eorzean_username

Should I swap to Defiance outside burst periods to reduce pressure on heals, or just ignore it because of the nasty –Dmg effect?

Not unless you need to. War's primary benefit to the team is in how much pressure they can apply in offense, and the amount of eHp you get form defiance is not worth the switch in most cases. It's actually ~5% lower than what a Pld gets from Shield Oath, so you're not really doing your healer a big favour by swapping to Defiance alone. Further, you lose more defensive utility by swapping, as you drop your potential returns from Bloodshower.

The only time I'd recommend switching to your defensive stance is if you actually need to play defensively. This usually happens at around 4 or more stacks of heavy medal. The amount of damage you receive starts to jump quite quickly at that point, and killing the tank (you) becomes a serious consideration for the enemy dps team. You should be particularly aware of this near the end-game, when the dps start to charge their Lb's. If you become the focus a dps burn, then it might be more useful to swap stances and utilize the Hp returns of Equilibrium and the defensive bursts of Inner Beast, rather than Fell Cleaves. Keep in mind that if you swap stances, you are limiting your party utility by lowering your dps. Therefore, if you are not the target of a dps burn, then it might be better to stay in your offensive stance and just make sure to pay extra attention to your surroundings. Another deciding factor is the score. If you're close to even, or losing, then your team probably needs your maximum possible utility. If you're winning by a decent point gap, however, then playing defensively and waiting out the timer might be safer than risking a loss to a late-game LB.

Originally Posted by Eorzean_username

Is Storm's Path (10% dmg down) effective in PvP, should I be keeping it up on dangerous targets?

Yes and no. Storm's Path does work in PvP, however it's utility is debatable. In theory, you could see a good return from Storm's Path on the target that currently has the Offensive Supply Box buff; however, when it comes to War, using your maximum burst is almost always the best way to maximze your utility, especially if it facilitates a kill. A dead target loses all buffs, so you stand to gain more from successfully killing a dangerous target than you do from de-buffing them. In between burst cycles, it might be worth while to apply it on any target that is harassing your healer, but that's a big 'might.' The better bet is to just apply Storm's Eye and see an immediate return on self-heals and dps.

Originally Posted by Eorzean_username

Is Storm's Eye (10% slash resist) as important as it is in PvE?

Simply put, YES.

Storm's Eye is the best way to keep your personal dps burst at it's maximum. You'll get the greatest return on your Fell Cleaves and self-heals via bloodshower when using it, so you should practically always be using it on your primary target (typically the healer). The only effect of Storm's Eye which doesn't work in PvP is its Hp recovery reduction (20%). That feature is void in the arena, so don't bother trying to apply it on targets to reduce their incoming heals. Your focus for it's use is almost purely for your own personal Dps. The only time you should even be considering adapting its usage is if you have a Ninja in the team, as they see the highest benefit to it out of every other Dps. If you have a Ninja, you should be trying to coordinate your efforts with them (and they should be doing the same with you). That means focusing down targets together with Storm's Eye. If not, then it's all about you and your dps.

Originally Posted by Eorzean_username

Are dots like Fracture useful pressure / Esuna-pollution, or should I not waste the GCD / TP? Do dots keep NIN out of stealth?

That's probably a question best posed to a healer, but in my experience, no.

The main difference between damage dealing in PvE vs PvP is the time of effect. In PvE, you're interested in doing your maximum damage possible over a lengthy amount of time. In PvP, you're looking for the strongest burst damage possible in a short amount of time. DoT's are included in this as well, but Fracture is a pitiful drop in the bucket compared to War's overall burst potential. You also might not have the time to apply it. PvP arenas are frantic places. Every second counts, so unless it's part of your bust combo it's often best to leave it at the door.

Further, healing isn't handled the same way as it is in PvE; so, a Healer might not necessarily esuna every little thing that ends up on the party status bars. In my limited experience, they're looking for more important status effects that can lead to an imminent death, such as stuns, binds, etc. Purify also throws a wrench in the works, as everyone has access to it.

Originally Posted by Eorzean_username

Also, does Rating stay the same between Jobs / Roles? That could get dangerous, for example going from experience Tanking into trying out Healing but being thrown in to higher-rank matches right away.

To my knowledge, yes. Your personal ranking is not job specific. It's character specific. There's a lot of pressure to play as one job and one job only, even from a gear and hotbar standpoint. If you want some cross-job experience in the Feast, it's probably best for you to get it while still at a low rank or in the pre-season times, when your ranking counts for less.

Hope that helps. If I got anything wrong or missed something, I'm sure someone will point it out, but most of it should be more or less accurate. You'll also get a better feel for it as you get first hand experience. Talking shop before a match is fine and dandy, but it's a whole other monster when you actually get in. The best thing you can do is keep your eyes open and adapt on the fly.

Originally Posted by Dimitrii

Its the platinums that are fking up the points.

I just got -31, no platinums involved... My team all gold, other team 2 gold 2 silver... If I'm losing more because my team had the rank "advantage", then SE really needs to take a look at how they match up teams, because there was no reason not to have both teams be 3 gold 1 silver...

Really though, I've still no clue what's causing this... I've had matches with pretty much the same set up as far as ranks go, and gotten -20, where the hell is that extra -11 coming from? I really wish this stupid rating system was more transparent, this is just constantly pissing me off... The game just seems to like going "Fuck you!" constantly, it's really not enjoyable at this point... If I at least could see why I'm seemingly randomly getting hit with large reductions in rating, I'd perhaps be less annoyed by it... Probably more annoyed at the matchmaking system instead, but whatever...

EDIT: exactly the same set up, 4 gold v 2 gold 2 silver, -24... Seriously SE... What the hell... And what the hell me, for playing on a weekend -_-;

I guess actual rating, which handily I cannot see, is involved... Either way I really have nothing polite left to say about Feast... Guess I should just look forward to more incredibly disappointing Dark Knight adjustments and Shatter...

Originally Posted by tehomegaking

LB's could be a cool and interesting gimmick that open up gameplay further. Why do we only have access to one? The beauty of limit breaks throughout the series is that they offer choice and even utility.

I'd love it if they dropped Limit Breaks from PvP in favor of Job ultimates... Powerful PvP skills that require full Adrenaline in order to use... Could do a lot of fun things with that and we wouldn't need to be limited to one per Job...

Doubt that'll ever happen though, since that would require SE to put effort in and require a great deal of balancing... I imagine we're stuck with the riveting gameplay Stun > kill button entails... At leasts tanks is slightly more interesting...