Thread: 3.2 PvP: Feast Game Mode Discussion Thread.

Originally Posted by Februs

I'm not sure that there's an answer to that question, because it's inevitable that something becomes Best in Slot. Even in PvE content, which has far greater gear variety than PvP, eventually one specific combination of gear becomes the end of the line. FFXIV is simply designed that way. There's no real gear customization outside of glamours, because there's no variance in how a jobs are supposed to be played. A Tank is a tank, for example, and all tanks need the same stats; therefore, they all end up using the same gear. PvP is no different.

BiS isn't a problem. Its the size of the gaps between BiS gearing, average gearing and entry gearing is where the problems lie. My question was basically "what advantages should a character wearing PvP BiS have over those not in PvP BiS and how big should this advantage be?"

That said, I don't think that this will be nearly as big of a problem as it was back in the original Wolves Den or Frontlines game modes, because there is no longer any restrictions on who can buy PvP gear. Even if PvP gear provides an advantage in PvP that makes it BiS for that game mode, it really isn't offering anyone an unfair advantage because anyone can pick up a set without worrying about rank restrictions. New players to PvP might have to deal with some growing pains while they come up with the Wolf Marks to actually buy a set of PvP armour, but given how quickly you can get Wolf Marks, it shouldn't take too long for them to catch up.

Gear rank restrictions were not the problem. It was gearing disparity between fresh level 50 characters joining level 50 PvP for the first time and those that had fully geared themselves.

The original implementation of Morale created an incredible gear gap between those in i70 PvP gear and those in i50 entry gear. The incredible damage and defense boost granted by Morale made facing an i70 PvPer a near-impossible challenge for anyone but those fully geared in i90.

It currently takes between 65 (winning all) and 130 (losing all) Feast matches in order to buy a full set of the i180 gear. A set of i205 gear requires 191 wins or 381 losses to buy.

In the end, as much as the removal of Rank Restrictions on PvP gear was a kick in the nuts to any players who actually put that effort in, it really would work out to be a favourable change should Morale be re-implemented because it would help level the playing field.

Not really. If Morale was returned to its original form and ilevelsync did not nullify it, it would still create an incredible gap between the PvP gear haves and have nots as the offense and defense boosts would easily overwhelm skill.

Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Snip.

I don't see this as a problem so much as an inevitability. It's the nature of the game. At any given time, new players in fresh gear will be outranked by seasoned players who have had time to gear up. That's the same for PvE as well as PvP. The new player will always be disadvantaged when compared to an old player, but that disadvantage is temporary.

Firstly, the advantages provided by Morale are not "incredible" so much as marginal. Even pre-2.4, comparative item level PvE sets stood toe to toe with PvP equipped players. Having morale did not stack the match so heavily in their favour that it guaranteed a victory. It provided a slight edge, emphasis on slight. The only players who really felt the pinch were players who were vastly under-leveled for the content, but those players felt that pinch regardless because they were also outclassed by high end PvE players. That hasn't changed. A player who is geared at 150 is going to be crushed by a player at 220, and it makes next to no difference if that 220 player has Morale or not.

To be perfectly honest, under-leveled players shouldn't even be queuing up for PvP in the first place. It's end-game content, and you should be geared accordingly. No one expects to go into Alexander Savage at the bare minimum required item level and have an equally smooth ride as a player who is 20 levels above. Why should we expect any different for PvP? Further, no one is twisting new player's arms to queue up for ranked matches (which are the only ones I believe should apply morale). You don't throw a kitten in with lions and expect it to survive. New players should be starting in the kiddy corner where no one cares about stats and just run around having fun. If they want to step into the ring with the more serious competitors, then they have no right to complain about stat bonus and being out-geared.

Further, it really doesn't take long for a player to gear up to a competitive level. You might need 191 wins/381 losses for a full PvP set, but you don't need a full PvP set to be competitive. Currently, it only takes an item level of 190 to sync to the base PvP stat caps for most jobs (with some mix and matching). As it happens, Alexander Gordias hands out item level 190 gear like candy. Then there's the tome gear, which we have two complete sets of. On top of that, we also have the Void Arc gear. There is no shortage of gear for new players to take advantage of before they so much as do a single run of PvP, and it all puts them at a competitive stat level. There's also the possibility that you'll be paired with other players who have that morale bonus already, given that ranked matches use random parties.

I do understand where you're coming from, and you're being very considerate to new players, but the bottom line is that there is no way that SE should ever be making balancing adjustments at the bottom end of the scale in a game mode that is, by design, supposed to be competitive. This is especially the case when the problem is temporary, and it really wouldn't make a difference regardless of what SE did to try and fix it. This is a statistic based game, and an under-geared player is an under-geared player. When they step into the ring with someone who stands above them, there's only one probable outcome. Morale really doesn't change that. It only gives a means for top end players to maximize their potential when facing off against one another.

If we have to keep Morale, and I don't think we should, I'd say it would make far more sense to have Morale be a reward multiplier...

I actually had a similar suggestion long ago, though the limited gear set space is what kills this... If that can be sorted out, I'd love to need separate sets for various different events, since that provides much more content for the game... Doing dungeons for dungeon gear, because dungeon gear has "Treasure Hunter" on it, and increases the rewards from "casual" content would provide a solid use for what is currently just gear there to trade in for GC seals... Likewise, having Morale function the same way, and improve the rewards for PvP would be nice... Higher Morale, the higher the stakes; Win and you get more, lose and you get less. Whether that is the tomestones, Wolf Marks, or Rating, IDK...

I can't really agree with a stat that actually has any impact on the battle itself... I don't even think gear should matter in PvP, everyones stats should be standardized to provide a level playing field, same goes for AP... As someone who has done a fair bit of PvP, I just find the gearing and AP annoying; Resetting AP is irritating (and yes, we can macro that now, whatever) and gearing doesn't really add anything to me except inventory headache... Were I new to PvP? I'd just find these things unfair, would I blame my losing on my inexperience, or the fact that the veterans have a slight advantage with something like AP? If my healer uses Divine Breath on me, and I get up at 30% HP and die quickly again, while my enemy does the same thing, only for them to be at 50% HP, how can I view that as an even match? To me, both gearing and AP are very much PvE mechanics, they're perfectly fine in PvE and that's where they belong (that's my way of saying put AP in PvE please)... In PvP? I either don't care for them, or am actively annoyed by them... I'm here for PvP, not some lame progression system... The Rating system is all we need in terms of a PvP progression system IMO... It becomes more of a veterans reward then, though... Someone who PvPs for longer is already better than a newb, they don't need Morale providing them an advantage, instead PvP gear is an investment. You PvP long enough, you buy the PvP gear, use it in battle and suddenly you're getting twice the Wolf Marks you were before to buy Materia with, and you should totally add all Materia to the Wolves' Den Pier given we can get it from Diadem too... How long ago did I, and plenty others, suggest that? Do it already...

Inventory space is the major issue facing whatever they do with Morale though... Trash Morale and leave the gear as glamour? Good, but I'm still running out of inventory space to hold this crap... Actually give Morale some solid use, either in making matches unbalanced, or providing better rewards for veterans, then you better be expanding the Armoury Chest soon... I simply do not have the gear set spaces for all the PvP sets I'd like...

Originally Posted by Nalien

snip

I'd be fine with morale giving more marks if wolf marks were actually worth something. They need to add way more stuff to den shops.

Originally Posted by Cynric

I'd be fine with morale giving more marks if wolf marks were actually worth something. They need to add way more stuff to den shops.

Definitely.

Materia would be an easy item to add with plenty of demand, and unlike Tomestones Wolf Mark rewards are tied more to victory, so I don't think we'd have to worry about an influx of trash quite as much with such a thing... t4 and t5 Materia would be fairly costly I'd imagine... More of a reward for people actually interested in PvP, rather than something someone who isn't going to bother will be able to farm with any real efficiency...

Not sure what they could add beyond that, though with new Grand Company Ranks coming, we can perhaps see Wolf Marks being more useful for obtaining Grand Company Seals again, and of course Wolf Marks have always been great for Desynthesis... An odd minion or mount perhaps... That's not as sustainable though... They'd need to keep adding new ones and I'd rather they not spend time on something like that... Perhaps something as costly as Fenrir would work, though we'd need Wolf Mark Tokens for that to work...

Relic style PvP weapons would always be nice I suppose, though they would have to require a lot of Wolf Marks... I still think they'd be better off reworking solo Rating to be a general PvP thing, rather than a Feast specific thing, and just giving us Job specific Rating with PvP Relics being the reward there... A Rating Roulette could keep all PvP relevant, and being Job specific could balance out the Job meta somewhat... They could always rework the way Rating rewards work; Rather than obtaining the gear in the mail, you obtain a token that can be exchanged, along with some Wolf Mark tokens, for the gear... Sort of like most tomestone weapons I guess... That would give Wolf Marks an extra purpose I suppose... Probably a bad idea that people wont like though, shouldn't have to do anything extra to earn that gear if you're already ranking so high... I mean you probably earned enough Wolf Marks to just get the gear getting that Rating, but whatever...