Thread: 3.2 PvP: Feast Game Mode Discussion Thread.

Originally Posted by tehomegaking

, except my warrior now has no heavy/no protection vs CC/no gap closers/very minimal CC on a huge cooldown.
We didn't need these things before, because we had reliable cast interruption outside of stun, it was balanced to a degree (lets say for 2.0 pvp, 3.0 warrior has been OP since day one).

The problem prior to the 15% buff to cast interrupts was the ability of any melee, range class able to interrupt casting with a single combo starter(take Warrior due to your example; Spamming just Heavy Swing could shut a caster down. There's no "Balance" in that)

I throw a bone; Berserk+IR is your caster harasser. using it to burst is the worst thing a Warrior can do imo, which I see a lot of Warriors do, then complain they can't shut down casters. Your Burst is HS+Maim, FullSwing+Infuriate>Fell Cleave>SE. That's it, your DPS classes are suppose to utilize what the amazing opening you just gave them.

When we talk about your secondary role, Berserk+IR is 20 seconds of caster interrupts. Pop Pushback+Vengeance and half the time you don't need your Purify. If you Brutal Swing, wait for stun to drop, hit Berserk+IR, spamming your SE combo is interrupt city for 20 seconds, brutal swing is back up in 10, you have a fell cleave stocked, and Infuriate is ready in another 10. that's a full minute of caster harassment(replace SE for SP if they're a caster dps, and watch them stroke out.

the 15% didn't remove a wall, it actually leveled the field.

Originally Posted by RiceisNice

15% is too high of a wall, most circumstances considered. And the removal of LoS walls in the arena.

And this is why you have abilities like surecast and equanimity, but now those abilities are rendered rather moot except for those cases. It;s a line to walk, you don't want casts being interrupted by a finger poke, but you don't want casts going out when you're getting shanked, stabbed and fisted in the face like a target dummy.

When I roll on MCH, I have no problem interrupting casts with a proc Clean shot, which is how it should be, again, I shouldn't be able to interrupt casts spamming Feint, which I did constantly before the fix.

Those walls were not torn down because of Los, like the general consensus seems to deem it. Everyone who's been in feast has to admit the walls surrounding the adrenaline cramped the middle way too much. throw 16 players in there, and it was a cluster eff of name and hp bars.

Im not going to hinder this thread in debate when we have had admin response. Let's agree to disagree, and keep the input conversation rolling.

excellent post that highlights many of the numerous issues thus far

Here's some Feedback (and suggestions) about Tome Farming:

Out of all of the current PvP issues, Tome farming has taken the crown jewel as being the number one issue I'd like to see addressed, and I'm not alone here. We all knew that this would happen, because there's a long history of it happening. The PvP community has been complaining about tome farmers since the Secure days. Many of us feared, and warned SE, that it would happen again in previous threads, and now it has and is a MASSIVE problem. Ranked game modes, in particular, should never allow for this kind of behavior because it ruins it for the serious players who want to actually win. It's hard enough keeping a consistent winning record with random players, doing it with an AFK tome farmer is next to impossible.

There's really no way to sugar-coat this. The only viable solutions are harsh, but at this point I'd say that they are necessary. Tomes need to be restricted in PvP. You should get NOTHING for losing. Only the victors take the spoils. I understand why SE has not done this in the past, because it deters casual PvP'ers from joining the game mode, but there isn't really another option (unless SE is willing to spectate each match to ensure it's fair, which is far less realistic).

Now, that said, IF SE restricts tome bonuses, real PvP'ers won't mind so much. They queue for the fun of it, not the rewards they're getting, so it's not a big deal. I do understand that casual queues will suffer, though. For that reason, I think it may also be necessary to offer casual players a different incentive to continue to queue for PvP. That's where the Wolf's Mark system comes in:

On top of restricting tome bonuses for losing, please provide us with more variety in vendor items to encourage casual players to queue in. Crafting materials, housing items, minions, mounts, anything that can be bought at the GC vendors (including cross GC items), even some of the Rowena items that are usually reserved for Tome currencies should be made available to buy at a PvP vendor. Do this (essentially providing casual players yet another method to gather tome items) and you will be securing more queues for PvP, as well as specialty items that are only available through PvP.

*A possible problem with this would be that SE might think Wolf Marks are simply too easy to obtain. If that is the case, then it should also be possible for them to add a currency for this purpose. "Wolf Tokens," for example, could be handled in a similar fashion to the ever growing list of Extreme Primal and Raid drop items that are exchangeable at Rowena's. Cap them at 2000. Allow them to be collected at a smaller interval than Wolf Marks, and have them be exchangeable at a special PvP vendor. Problem solved. You might even get more queues this way, as it will appeal to a broader audience than just relic hunters.

Originally Posted by Februs

There's really no way to sugar-coat this. The only viable solutions are harsh, but at this point I'd say that they are necessary. Tomes need to be restricted in PvP. You should get NOTHING for losing. Only the victors take the spoils. I understand why SE has not done this in the past, because it deters casual PvP'ers from joining the game mode, but there isn't really another option (unless SE is willing to spectate each match to ensure it's fair, which is far less realistic).

I don't think the nuclear option is really necessary in this case though-considering the PvP community is segregated by data centers and too small to be going nuclear. Solutions are only as limited as our imaginations allow after all.

I think a better method to fix the problem would be to implement a FATE style function into the rewards system. You have to meet a certain level of contribution depending on your role before a base-line static award is dolled out. Static awards for tombstone could then increase based on performance.

Getting people to push for wins in a positive manner is the way to go and would get more people to play in the long run and want to do well. You could tack on what you said about offering more things to buy with wolf marks and I think we'd have a nice update.

Originally Posted by Cidolfas86

I don't think the nuclear option is really necessary in this case though-considering the PvP community is segregated by data centers and too small to be going nuclear. Solutions are only as limited as our imaginations allow after all.

That's exactly why I offered an alternative in the form of an expanded vendor, but I will admit that I'm biased about it.

A lot of us PvP'ers have been pining for an overhauled vendor system in PvP for a long time now. Even back when the PvP gear was actually useful, there was already chatter about getting an expansion to the types of items provided. Now just seems like the right time for it, and I honestly think that it would work better than a simple tome bonus. Not only would an expanded vendor system appeal to more players, but it would also provide an additional means of completing PvE content by providing one more outlet for the items we are all grinding for. By doing so, PvP players could continue to play the content they actually enjoy without falling too far behind PvE'ers in the regular game content. For example, Farming the unidentified items in the previous section of the Anima quest forced PvP'ers to stop PvP'ing. With an expanded vendor system they could continue to PvP and collect items, albeit at a slower rate.

I'm also not as concerned over queue times. Firstly, any match in which you get one or more players who are AFK or actively trying to lose is not a real match. Losing those kinds of players is not a bad thing, even if it comes at the cost of queue times. Most of us would rather actually play the game, after all. Secondly, increased queue times is an inevitability. It happens every time a new PvP game mode comes out. Eventually, the queues die, especially after people start having less demand for tome items. People who queue for tomes are, at best, a temporary boost the queues. By comparison, an upgraded vendor system is much more agreeable. Most of us are also hoping for the server queues to be merged as well, similar to the way Raids work, so that more active PvP'ers can sustain their queue times longer.

As for the idea of a merit system, I do like it; however I don't think it's viable. This idea has been played with in the past, but no one has stated how they could potentially get it to work. For example, how do you judge the merit of a Tank? In FATES, a Tank's merit is judged by the aggro meter, but aggro isn't a thing in PvP. Dmg mitigated is also not a good way to qualify the tank's contribution, and CC would be almost impossible to judge, because using the skill is not enough. A Pld could run around stunning everyone in the match all match long, for example, but that wouldn't mean that it was the best thing they could have been doing. Healers would be in a similar boat. Do you judge them on Hp healed? What about the healers who utilize their best CC? A Whm who keeps sleeps up the enemy team might be doing exactly the best thing they could to win the match, but they'd be judged poorly because they healed less. The only job that a merit system would seem to work well for is Dps, as their contribution is the easiest to measure.

Here's some two cents on Morale:

Personally, I've always been in the camp that advocates for the Morale stat. I would very much like to see it re-applied to PvP and improved upon. However, I do think that the type of game mode it is implemented into should be considered. For example, Morale really doesn't have a place in a casual setting. Most casual players don't care what gear they are wearing and rely heavily on the fact that they are in a much larger team and have no need to optimize their role. They do not need Morale. I don't think that having it apply would dramatically throw the game mode out of order (especially there's no party queue options for 8 vs 8), but it's really not needed.

Ranked game modes, however, are a different story. Aside from tome farmers, the target audience is players who have a vested interest in winning and preforming well. They should be given any and every tool available to make sure they can optimize their odds, especially considering there are no party queue options for the only currently available ranked game mode. I would very much like to see Morale applied to this game mode, as well as (and I know I'm talking crazy here) materia bonuses.

I single out Materia as well, because it provides a method for seasoned PvP'ers to combat the CC options available to certain job compositions. For example, being able to stack a higher sleep resistance would be a great benefit when facing off against a Whm or Blm. Stacking additional Vit would make interrupts harder. Stacking strength, Det, or Crit, could make them easier. Etc. It gives players a way to maximize their potential, albeit at small values that are far from game breaking. That said, Job balancing can be handled in a number of different ways. As long as players are given some kind of way to keep the game balanced then it is fine no matter what form it comes it. Materia is just conveniently available; so, why not use it?

Morale, on the other hand, should will require adjustments to work efficiently. Ideally, Morale should be used to allow seasoned and serious PvP'ers a means of maximizing their potential in combat; however, that might not be possible with the current level sync, as even PvE gear sets players at maximum stat cap. To address this, it may be necessary to adjust the level sync on ranked game modes (I continually pluralize that with the expectation that party queue will, eventually, become a ranked mode). I also think that Morale should not necessarily carry an equal benefit across all jobs. Instead, it may be necessary for Morale to effect the gear differently depending on the gear piece it is on, or the job using it. For now, I would be happy with a simple sweeping stat increase across all jobs; however, there's a lot of potential for adding specific stats to specific jobs instead. For example, PvP action potency and effects could be boosted instead of stats. Having consecutive players in the same party could allow for a stacking increase to stats (ie: if two or more players are equipped with PvP sets then party def/atk are boosted by x%).

Regardless of what they chose to do, there are a lot of options and potential; so, I don't feel it's a good decision to just write the stat off because of a muddled history in a game mode that was woefully under developed in the first place.

Originally Posted by fm_fenrir

The only thing I'd like to change is maybe making Morale affect the proc rate of CC resist materia, and allowing CC resist materia in ranked games. So many games hinge on CC being effectively cleansed/suppressed, and you could optimize your materia loadout based on the comps you expect to see.

That's not how CC resist materia works. It decreases the duration, doesn't give you a flat-out chance to resist.