FFXIV is becoming a grind fest with little enjoyment.

[Galibier]

There are a huge number of different core combat systems an MMO could use. /snip

Alright, lets say you aren't being myopic and the mere fact it uses a point and click UI interface at it's core somehow makes it a close (since the way you hit those buttons, combos and such is indeed fundamentally different. Games are far more than their UI. As the above picture shows, just because both of those are roller coasters does not make them even remotely the same. You ignore EVERYTHING else that is different about the game to whip out the easy trope "I have issues with this game s call it a WoW clone." Using your logic, no car has been it's own unique animal since at least the Model T.

Also Disney v Six Flags is simply silly. Instead lets look at Disney World and Universal Orlando. That is where you need to apply the analogy because they are... analogous. They have many of the same fundamentals however each has a VERY different feel to them.

[Galibier]

Whenever someone says "WoW Clone!!!!" I want to ask "do you know what that means?" A clone, in this context, would be something that delivers a near identical experience in every way, the feeling of the world, the story, game play, etc. FFXIV has some VERY distinct differences, just like the alleged WOW Clone Rift did, case in point, the soul system. At best we can call these games, siblings, cousins etc.

The Warframe your mention made me laugh as it proved my point. You say it is unique. Here is a comment from Gamezone"If you already enjoy games like Monster Hunter which require you to farm for items in order to craft better ones, Warframe follows that very same formula, except with much more satisfying and faster paced combat." So OMG it's a Monster Hunter Clone... oh wait no it's not.

[Zumi]

Diadem would have an absolute claim system. Regular enemies would not be ridiculous bullet sponges. NMs would have more interesting spawn requirements, primarily pop items. This would also make Gathering more of an activity in Diadem, Gathering could yield pop items, it could be a pop requirement, it could also yield temporary items to help you in combat. Similar to Zeni NMs there would also be a hierarchy, except your progress is wiped upon exit. This gives your run a solid goal throughout, ideally there would be two separate paths you could go with this, so runs could have some variety (somewhat similar to Limbus; do you work on popping Proto-Ultima or Proto-Omega?).

What you are asking for already exists in FFXI the newest endgame areas Escha. There are 3 tiers of NMs which require crafted items, and key items from other NMs to pop. The huge problem with this type of content is that its open world certain lottery nms are required for pop items of forced pop nms and requires a huge amount of people 18 people with very high level gear to do anything. Requires almost the full group to have relic level weapons, along with certain support jobs, no bard with out relic horn and empy harp you aren't getting anything done.

This type of system is really dated which is why it is in FFXI. See this https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Category:Escha When you have to refer to a chart to see what crafted items and pop items you need to pop NMs that's when something is too overly complex won't work well for the masses.

The type of FFXI gameplay you want still exists in FFXI and you can play it if you like that type of gameplay. A lof of us have moved on to FFXIV because we like it better. Don't really want to go back to having to compete with others for pop items spend years doing relic/empyren/mythic weapons. Having to read complex charts just to grasp what we are suppose to do. SE even said recently that FFXI isn't ending only the story missions are, they will continue to add more battle content.

[Alahra]

This type of system is really dated which is why it is in FFXI.

FFXIV could implement something similar though (and it's actually what I thought Hunts were going to be originally), without the need for a chart. Imagine an item that works sort of like treasure maps—let's say there are 12 of them, and for giggles, let's say there are 12, one for each of the Zodiac Braves (I know they used them already, but this is just for illustration).

You can dispense with the need for tiers of NMs (that FFXI has in Escha but also had in Abyssea) and just skip straight to the cool ones, or do something simple where each of the 12 "Zodiac Stones" (that are used to pop the NMs), can all drop from any treasure map, so there's no specific need to go look up a chart—you just go to the MB and buy the Cancer stone to pop Cancer, and that's your NM.

They don't have to lift systems entirely from FFXI for them to create similar content here (indeed, Diadem—for all its faults—is, in a lot of ways, superficially similar to Dynamis in FFXI or dungeons in hack and slash titles like Diablo that have randomly-generated loot).

[Kosmos992k]

I think the major issue with this is not the fact that we have a lack of content, but Diadem was such a disaster that huge piece of content was pushed aside by us gamers. We asked SE to take bigger risks and they did with Diadem,but risks are gambles and SE lost on that.

Actually, I think you are wrong here. Diadem was not a huge disaster. The disaster was the way in which some players a) farmed it more times a day than is healthy and b) reacted to the idea that through RNG it would be possible (no matter how remotely) for a ilvl 210 gear piece with optimal stats better than a raid piece, to drop. The histrionics about Diadem was quite interesting, and it was also amusing to me that it seemed that those throwing the biggest fits and shouting the loudest about Diadem's failure were end-game players who already had a decent amount of Raid or Eso gear along with the spoils from their Diadem farming. But once they have their gera and notice that filthy casuals can get it too, they were horrified and the outcry began.

Never mind the fact that in the long term Diadem is a piece of catch-up content to allow non raiders with the minimum gear requirement to run it, a chance to acquire ilvl 210 gear with less than optimal stats (unless you are very, very fortunate). But, thanks to the outcry, it get's nerfed and the players who - in the long term - should have benefited from the system, now have a harder road to walk.

The biggest problem facing SE with things like Diadem, Alex Normal/Savage and even the Hunt system and the debacle it spawned is that SE listens to the players and tries to create content that will fit what players seem to be asking for, but also fits the audience of the game. Alex Normal isn't there for hardcore end-game raiders as the be all, end all raid in 3.0. It's a stepping stone to Savage. But for the majority of players, it is 'the raid' from 3.0. The complaints about Alex Normal don't come from those players for whom it is 'the raid', they come from end-game raiders who farmed it mercilessly already and got bored because Alex Savage was a carbon copy with better drops. The solution to that problem is not to alter Alex Normal, but rather to expand Alex Savage with bonus content that makes it run differently to 'Normal' and differentiate the drops and rewards between Normal and Savage.

I think that the biggest problem we have is that Yoshi-P and his team give the players in general (and NA in particular) much more credit than we deserve. They create content that in an ideal world would be great for players who react as they predict. The problem is that their prediction of player behavior is just too optimistic. Players in general are much more instant gratification oriented, NA players seem to me to be more goal oriented and less people oriented. Such players, will do what it takes to gain their gratification and goal at the expense of others. Roll all of that into the sharing of knowledge via the Net, and suddenly the instant gratification, goal oriented players willing to do what it takes, are able to clear content much more quickly than intended. They are able to do that because theyc an use the Internet to quickly share and compare information, allowing for knowledge of optimal routes or mechanic exploits to spread quickly; approaching things in ways that the Dev team didn't consider, with a focus and frequency that they did not consider.

The result is that content lasts a fraction of the expected time, vocal end-game players scream and shout on the forum, and Yoshi-P and team scratch their heads and try again to satisfy that which can never be satisfied.

[Colorful]

snip

It was designed in a manner where you were dropped in an island with the only goal being to kill stuff for loot, or gather. Did they expect people to socialize and sit around like they did so in the trailer? No, that's unlikely due to the 90 minute timer alongside the 30/120 minute cooldown. It was a bland piece of content that was supposed to change up the game, finally give us that change people have been asking for it. It didn't do that, and so it was a huge disaster. How many runs of it do you see now on the PF? I've literally not seen one in weeks, after the nerf to gear. That goes to show that other than the loot, the content was garbage.

I guess it's all subjective, but the majority opinion is that it's simply not fun nor rewarding.

[Alahra]

How many runs of it do you see now on the PF? I've literally not seen one in weeks, after the nerf to gear.

I think I've seen...three, since the nerf, which is outright sad. It's even more sad because, honestly, outside of the Dinosaur zerg, I thought Diadem was pretty fun, when you got those parties where a group of 8 split off, found a camp, and farmed mobs for an hour or so. It reminded me a lot of older-styled "camp" play in games like FFXI. I wish the content had been designed in such a way as to make that the most effective way to play, with NMs being huge events that the zone came together for (with the credit thresholds setup being such that people could actually travel to the location of the NM in time for it to matter), instead of the "zerg all the dinos" mess that we got.

[Zumi]

FFXIV could implement something similar though (and it's actually what I thought Hunts were going to be originally), without the need for a chart. Imagine an item that works sort of like treasure maps—let's say there are 12 of them, and for giggles, let's say there are 12, one for each of the Zodiac Braves (I know they used them already, but this is just for illustration).

You can dispense with the need for tiers of NMs (that FFXI has in Escha but also had in Abyssea) and just skip straight to the cool ones, or do something simple where each of the 12 "Zodiac Stones" (that are used to pop the NMs), can all drop from any treasure map, so there's no specific need to go look up a chart—you just go to the MB and buy the Cancer stone to pop Cancer, and that's your NM.

They don't have to lift systems entirely from FFXI for them to create similar content here (indeed, Diadem—for all its faults—is, in a lot of ways, superficially similar to Dynamis in FFXI or dungeons in hack and slash titles like Diablo that have randomly-generated loot).

The new relics for the Rhapsodies called the Aeonic Weapons that just came out. Not only is there tons of grinding IE turning in lots of merit points, and huge amounts of points got from killing Escha NM, but there is also the difficulty of it involves killing every NM in Escha. Escha is similar to Abyssea but on steroids. They even did something crazy like made a buffed Absolute Virtue called Warder of Courage where most servers haven't even killed. People take one look at that NM chart for Escha and say well I am not doing it. However if you do manage to kill every NM and get your weapon the Aeonic Weapons unlock level 4 ultimate skillchains Radiance and Umbra.

[Alahra]

-snip-

Yes, I'm aware, I'm still subscribed to FFXI.

[Callback]

The Funtastic World of Hanna-Barbera at Universal Studios was the 'first' and Universal is credited with inventing 'motion theater', although Disney's attraction opened first, Universal created theirs before Disney. Before that there was also a Space Shuttle Simulator ride in the CN tower that opened in 1985....

Actually I have to say that there were earlier instances of this technology with arcade games that used motion such as the Deluxe version of Hang On where you 'ride' the bike and as you lean the bike it leans in game with the game screen being mounted on the faux handle-bars. Let's not even count the motion simulation used by aviation for decades.

The point I am making is that Disney didn't so much invent these things, but rather they collected existing concepts and technology, expanded upon it to some degree, and packaged it expertly. I'm not saying Disney did nothing, but I can't accept this thought that Disney somehow is the sole inventing influence on such technologies. Hell, we could point to the Movie Metropolis for a prior art example of a mechanical figure that many people would be familiar with today.

The packaging of Disney is in many ways more significant than the underlying technology or concept. That packaging leans heavily on Disney's treasure trove of beloved animated characters, and by creating a 'world' for their characters to inhabit inside heir parks, Disney created a package that is unlike any other. But technologically and historically, they were not the first to these things, they may be the most successful and visible example today however.

BTW, animatronics can easily trace it's roots to things like the various clockwork automatons that exist including Peny Arcade fortune tellers (animated figures in a box....) and even Karakuri puppets from the 17th/18th/19th century in Japan. There were many interactive experiences and other attractions at county Fairs and carnivals that have been around for a very, very long time. Seaside attractions on piers that use many of these same concepts down the ages too, a lot of which began in the Victorian age - look at Coney Island for numerous examples from that initial amusement park era.

As ever it's tru-ish to say that there is nothing new in the world, only old things given a new coat of paint.

The point of all this being that MMORPGs are at their heart nothing more than a technological way of implementing Role Playing games like D&D, GURPS, and other dice based RPGs with character sheets and fantasy settings. Instead of sitting together in a room with the game master behind his/her screens, we gather online and the game master is replaced by the game server. All the concepts used in MMORPGs are simply logical extensions and developments of concepts from those table top games. I honestly don't think it fair to claim FFXIV is a clone of WoW or anything else. Unless we first with to start tracing the lineage of all MMORPGs back to table top games such as D&D, GURPS, MERP or AD&D, we should stop trying to use other games as a benchmark, or claim cloning when all MMORPGs share a basic common ancestor.

Everything in human society is built off of prior influences, but becomes "new" when it advances them far enough and differentiates itself form its predecessors in a significant manner. There's no exact way to delineate the difference between a "new" concept or a version of an existing one, but it's usually pretty easy to tell. Think of the generation of Doom Clones (again, namesake based on popularity. Everyone knows Wolfenstein 3D came out before it.) we had before Quake came in to define the FPS as a genre.

But enough sidetracking. The main point is that XIV is a WoW clone. There is no debating that the core combat mechanics follow the same formula WoW does. If you wanted to even enter a gray area you would need to look at The Secret World, Starbound (I think, haven't played to see), or something similar (I think the current term for those is "reticle combat"). We're talking pure combat here. Of course TSW is unique in terms of quest design, but the combat is that gray area that's possibly a Wow clone variant (By virtue of trinity-enforced combat through lack of hitstun, unavoidable enemy autos, etc.) and possibly worth calling its own style (By virtue of being somewhat more active on the player's behalf in terms of movement and aiming required). (I personally lean towards variant myself). XIV is not even close to this gray zone. It is point-and-click auto-target non-interactive meter-balancing "combat", in exactly the WoW-clone style.

Alright, lets say you aren't being myopic and the mere fact it uses a point and click UI interface at it's core somehow makes it a close (since the way you hit those buttons, combos and such is indeed fundamentally different. Games are far more than their UI. As the above picture shows, just because both of those are roller coasters does not make them even remotely the same. You ignore EVERYTHING else that is different about the game to whip out the easy trope "I have issues with this game s call it a WoW clone." Using your logic, no car has been it's own unique animal since at least the Model T.

Also Disney v Six Flags is simply silly. Instead lets look at Disney World and Universal Orlando. That is where you need to apply the analogy because they are... analogous. They have many of the same fundamentals however each has a VERY different feel to them.

Universal is in a weird state. It's part "standard" theme park, part Disney clone, and a small part unique identity (much of which has been removed). Their best example of unique mechanics is the new "Harry Potter and the Escape from Gringotts." The old HP ride is moderately unique, but not well-executed as an experience. The new one is masterful in execution and shows promise for the park as a whole. On the other hand, the park itself has some egregious self-cloning with Transformers being a near-perfect carbon-copy reskin of Spiderman.

Of course Disney has some bad examples of recycling as well. The Little Mermaid ride? It's just reskinned Doom Buggys through scenes of old A1 model animatronics. I know it's meant to be simple for kids, but the Snow White mine ride is too and that at least uses brand new animatronic tech plus the cool shadow effect, with the cars themselves also unique in their rocking motion.

but this isn't a Disney/Universal thread. Stop sidetracking!