The arrogance of some people

[Niwashi]

I've been keeping up with the discussion a bit, and while it's not "wholly" the point, its still there non the less, and it's being brought up. When you cast it aside or outright ignore it, it throws statements out of context, which is why we keep having this back and fourth.

Yes, and that's pretty much what I've said myself earlier. KaitlanKela tried saying that the whole discussion was about only one situation, when in fact it's about multiple situations, and that's why everyone keeps disagreeing about it. It's not wholly about either.

A healer that can both heal (and keep the tank alive) and dps is objectively making the run go faster,, that's really not up for debate. You're essentially repeating what your quoted person is saying

Everybody agreed that, when done well, it makes the run go faster. What we disagreed on was whether that makes it objectively and demonstrably better. Speed that doesn't contribute towards any objective is no different from anything else that doesn't contribute towards an objective. The message I was replying to talked about how it was more fun, and about how it could speed things up, but then tried to use those purely personal preference issues as evidence to conclude that it was therefore objectively and demonstrably a more valid playstyle.

But that's the thing about personal preferences — not everyone has the same ones, and that's why they're not considered objective. One player might think DPSing as a healer makes it more fun. Another might think it makes it less fun. One player might like runs to go faster. Another might like runs to go slower. There are plenty of players who prefer a smooth run over a hectic one.

If there's an actual in-game reason for needing damage to come faster (e.g. a difficult DPS check), then that qualifies as an objective reason for wanting the healer to help with DPS. But the rest of the time, it's just a personal choice.

Speed of the run is a courtesy to your team.

That depends on your team. If they all want a fast run, then certainly, speeding it up is a courtesy to them. If they'd prefer a slower more relaxed run, then it isn't.

[KaitlanKela]

That depends on your team. If they all want a fast run, then certainly, speeding it up is a courtesy to them. If they'd prefer a slower more relaxed run, then it isn't.

Okay, the thread has been primarily about people choosing not to, but if you're going to split hairs, fine. Yes, there are some people who can't DPS and heal. I love how I addressed that and it was ignored and you picked this one quote. In fact, I've addressed it several times over the last couple pages, but that really wouldn't fit your narrative, would it? The truth of speed being a courtesy to your team is OBVIOUS, but of course to pull the "personal preference" special snowflake card which literally cannot be debated at all. I guess you win. Except that bit about communicating your expectations to your teammates, which is common sense, common courtesy and you completely ignored and didn't respond to that part of my post.

I've been fairly civil this whole thread, but I'm frustrated by you because I feel like you edit out/avoid all of the logic in my posts and counter with "whateva whatever ppl do what they want". Even that point I agreed with already so I honestly have NO CLUE what you're trying to add to the discussion here.

[Tilgung]

Missing the point.

Those numbers are inflated. The entire team is working together to increase that one characters DPS numbers to obscene levels in dummy fights. Doing this causes the other members DPS to tank in comparison.

I'm not saying it's fake. I'm saying the team composition is being adjusted for very easy fights to improve a single members DPS for e-peen reasons.

Why are you riding these e-peens so hard that you're going to throw out the fact these same players are putting out sub 1500 DPS in actual challenging fights that can't be done with DPS padding strats in any reliable way?

Here's an idea, how about you look at those characters histories in those fights. That character with the 1800 Oppressor also has attempts against Oppressor as low as 1200. In fact, their most recent kill is 1552

[RiceisNice]

Yes, and that's pretty much what I've said myself earlier. KaitlanKela tried saying that the whole discussion was about only one situation, when in fact it's about multiple situations, and that's why everyone keeps disagreeing about it. It's not wholly about either..

IDK, I don;'t see him/her/it making any of those points. They may have talked about that situation, but I didn't take that situation for the entire post. Semantics or misinterpration/mistranslationm I guess.

Those numbers are inflated. The entire team is working together to increase that one characters DPS numbers to obscene levels in dummy fights. Doing this causes the other members DPS to tank in comparison.

I'm not saying it's fake. I'm saying the team composition is being adjusted for very easy fights to improve a single members DPS for e-peen reasons.

Why are you riding these e-peens so hard that you're going to throw out the fact these same players are putting out sub 1500 DPS in actual challenging fights that can't be done with DPS padding strats in any reliable way?

I feel like that his examples have gotten so far to the extremes its actually lost the original point that was being made, at that point I sorta just stopped using my posts to reply to that.

[KaitlanKela]

IDK, I don;'t see him/her/it making any of those points. They may have talked about that situation, but I didn't take that situation for the entire post. Semantics or misinterpration/mistranslationm I guess.

Ah, someone who actually read more than one part of one of my posts. Thank you.

I'm a female and you may address me as such.

[Niwashi]

Except that bit about communicating your expectations to your teammates, which is common sense, common courtesy and you completely ignored and didn't respond to that part of my post.

I agreed with that part. Sorry, I tend to only quote the bits I have something to say about. Sometimes that means quoting just a single representative statement out of a longer argument. Other times it means points that were already covered I leave alone. In this case it was the later. I thought you'd made the point about more communication well enough yourself. But given that I was disagreeing with some of the other things you'd said, I should have clarified where there were points of agreement as well.

Yes, I agree that more communication between teammates to make sure everyone's on the same page, working towards the same goals, and with some understanding of each others' comfort levels, would go a long way towards solving these issues. (And would help with quite a few other issues as well, for that matter.)

The truth of speed being a courtesy to your team is OBVIOUS, but of course to pull the "personal preference" special snowflake card which literally cannot be debated at all.

It's only obviously a courtesy if speed is indeed your goal. Since it's not a goal that the game gives you, what else could it be besides a personal preference?

You, personally, like runs to go fast, so you think of speed as a benefit and therefore a courtesy to your team. And if the rest of your teammates also like fast runs, then for that particular team, you're right. But all of it is based just off of liking runs to go fast. Calling it obvious or demonstrable sounds as though you're the one claiming your preference in that matter should define everybody else's goals.

Another point that we agree on is that players should keep contributing toward the shared team objectives, but we disagree regarding how all that might be done. If speed is a shared team objective (which in many cases it is), then DPS is the path towards meeting that objective. But if instead the shared team objective is a smooth easy run that minimizes danger to the party while maximizing the chances of a successful clear (which is also a fairly common objective), then more role-focused conservative gameplay is better at fulfilling that goal.

I guess either way it comes back to the communication issue, so I get to end on a point that I think we agree about.
If you talk with your teammates at the outset of a run, and come to a consensus as to what your goals and strategies are going to be, then how best to heal that run becomes a whole lot clearer.

[Launched]

It's only obviously a courtesy if speed is indeed your goal. Since it's not a goal that the game gives you, what else could it be besides a personal preference?

In addition to helping everyone by getting them out of the dungeon faster, a healer DPSing will make the group clear actual fights faster which means there are less mechanics to do, less chance for people to run out of cooldowns/resources, less chances to make mistakes. Some healer DPS (Holy's stun, Shadowflare's slow) also has the side effect of reducing incoming damage on the tank, or in places like A3S, can slow enemies to give you more time to deal with them.

[Kallera]

In addition to helping everyone by getting them out of the dungeon faster, a healer DPSing will make the group clear actual fights faster which means there are less mechanics to do, less chance for people to run out of cooldowns/resources, less chances to make mistakes.

I'm glad I leveled dps first then, because I'm sure this would have confused me too if I started as conjurer.

[Alahra]

It's only obviously a courtesy if speed is indeed your goal. Since it's not a goal that the game gives you, what else could it be besides a personal preference?

I'd like to echo this bit, as it's a sentiment I don't see expressed very often. Most especially when I was first getting into end-game dungeons, I absolutely loathed speedrun mentalities (my original main was SCH), and to this day I often prefer a run that's a little slower but smooth to one that's faster but more hectic. These days, I like speedrunning with people I know, but in the DF, I'm never upset if I get a tank that takes it one pull at a time or if I get a healer that focuses on healing.

When I tank or heal myself, I do large pulls or DPS as befits the group I'm dealt, but I personally understand that there are players who just don't enjoy blowing through dungeons at breakneck speed.

[Eul]

I'm glad I leveled dps first then, because I'm sure this would have confused me too if I started as conjurer.

I doubt people gonna force you to dps on low level dungeon (At least on my data center). When I first time leveling conjurer, I rarely have time to dps because of "urge to make tank's HP full" lol.